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Judiciary and Justice: Re-engineering processes, restoring faith | Kishore Mandyam | TEDxRVCE


nine years that’s what it’s taken the

nine years that’s what it’s taken the two wires to be acquitted last week it

two wires to be acquitted last week it

two wires to be acquitted last week it took seven years in the lower courts in

took seven years in the lower courts in

took seven years in the lower courts in Ghaziabad and it took another two years

Ghaziabad and it took another two years

Ghaziabad and it took another two years in the Allahabad High Court and let me

in the Allahabad High Court and let me

in the Allahabad High Court and let me tell you they were extremely lucky

tell you they were extremely lucky

tell you they were extremely lucky because the average time a case takes in

because the average time a case takes in

because the average time a case takes in India in the lower courts is nine years

India in the lower courts is nine years

India in the lower courts is nine years the average case it takes in the

the average case it takes in the

the average case it takes in the Allahabad High Court is nearly seven

Allahabad High Court is nearly seven

Allahabad High Court is nearly seven years so they could have been in jail

years so they could have been in jail

years so they could have been in jail actually they could have been under

actually they could have been under

actually they could have been under trials for sixteen years instead of nine

trials for sixteen years instead of nine

trials for sixteen years instead of nine that makes you worry you know the first

that makes you worry you know the first

that makes you worry you know the first thing the Constitution guarantees us is

thing the Constitution guarantees us is

thing the Constitution guarantees us is justice that’s the first thing the

justice that’s the first thing the

justice that’s the first thing the preamble says and here we are with the

preamble says and here we are with the

preamble says and here we are with the problem that’s not new it’s a problem

problem that’s not new it’s a problem

problem that’s not new it’s a problem that’s been around for thirty five years

that’s been around for thirty five years

that’s been around for thirty five years you know in 1984 there was a movie made

you know in 1984 there was a movie made

you know in 1984 there was a movie made about delay in courts but unfortunately

about delay in courts but unfortunately

about delay in courts but unfortunately the market for justice has moved on if I

the market for justice has moved on if I

the market for justice has moved on if I can say that the market of justice in

can say that the market of justice in

can say that the market of justice in India has moved to lots of other places

India has moved to lots of other places

India has moved to lots of other places religious heads meet out justice there’s

religious heads meet out justice there’s

religious heads meet out justice there’s a Municipal Council in Mumbai who meets

a Municipal Council in Mumbai who meets

a Municipal Council in Mumbai who meets our justice who runs like a shaka with

our justice who runs like a shaka with

our justice who runs like a shaka with the court and of course there are the

the court and of course there are the

the court and of course there are the cops earlier this year we did a survey

cops earlier this year we did a survey

cops earlier this year we did a survey of about 50,000 people fifty thousand

of about 50,000 people fifty thousand

of about 50,000 people fifty thousand households all over the country and we

households all over the country and we

households all over the country and we asked them how they access justice

asked them how they access justice

asked them how they access justice everybody knows this delay so people use

everybody knows this delay so people use

everybody knows this delay so people use various mechanisms one of the things we

various mechanisms one of the things we

various mechanisms one of the things we actually videotaped was a cop in Haryana

actually videotaped was a cop in Haryana

actually videotaped was a cop in Haryana there’s a very interesting case in that

there’s a very interesting case in that

there’s a very interesting case in that part of the world there’s a custom that

part of the world there’s a custom that

part of the world there’s a custom that if a man dies an untimely death his wife

if a man dies an untimely death his wife

if a man dies an untimely death his wife is expected to marry his brother and in

is expected to marry his brother and in

is expected to marry his brother and in this particular case the lady had come

this particular case the lady had come

this particular case the lady had come forward to the cop and said I’m not

forward to the cop and said I’m not

forward to the cop and said I’m not willing to do that so a cop went through

willing to do that so a cop went through

willing to do that so a cop went through some deliberations for five years of

some deliberations for five years of

some deliberations for five years of conversation hours of conversation I’m

conversation hours of conversation I’m

conversation hours of conversation I’m sorry I’m using the judicial system

sorry I’m using the judicial system

sorry I’m using the judicial system right for five hours of conversation and

right for five hours of conversation and

right for five hours of conversation and they came back and said that’s okay if

they came back and said that’s okay if

they came back and said that’s okay if you don’t want to marry your brother no

you don’t want to marry your brother no

you don’t want to marry your brother no law that’s fine but you know what your

law that’s fine but you know what your

law that’s fine but you know what your two children who are young and need to

two children who are young and need to

two children who are young and need to be educated they will still be the

be educated they will still be the

be educated they will still be the responsibility of your brother-in-law

responsibility of your brother-in-law

responsibility of your brother-in-law which is a pretty premature thing if you

which is a pretty premature thing if you

which is a pretty premature thing if you think about it but you know I am a

think about it but you know I am a

think about it but you know I am a techie I am not so much interested in

techie I am not so much interested in

techie I am not so much interested in the quality of justice there are lots of

the quality of justice there are lots of

the quality of justice there are lots of people worrying about that as the

people worrying about that as the

people worrying about that as the quantity of justice and we went back and

quantity of justice and we went back and

quantity of justice and we went back and looked at this particular issue we

looked at this particular issue we

looked at this particular issue we started looking at this for three years

started looking at this for three years

started looking at this for three years ago and we started collecting data about

ago and we started collecting data about

ago and we started collecting data about how the judicial system works in India

how the judicial system works in India

how the judicial system works in India we started looking at the high courts

we started looking at the high courts

we started looking at the high courts you know if if you don’t know there are

you know if if you don’t know there are

you know if if you don’t know there are three levels of courts in India there is

three levels of courts in India there is

three levels of courts in India there is a supreme Supreme Court which is the

a supreme Supreme Court which is the

a supreme Supreme Court which is the ultimate arbiter there are twenty-four

ultimate arbiter there are twenty-four

ultimate arbiter there are twenty-four High Courts which to look after

High Courts which to look after

High Courts which to look after issues at a state level in multiple

issues at a state level in multiple

issues at a state level in multiple states and there are about 21,000 lower

states and there are about 21,000 lower

states and there are about 21,000 lower courts at the district and the lower

courts at the district and the lower

courts at the district and the lower levels

levels

levels so we started talking data from all the

so we started talking data from all the

so we started talking data from all the high courts we started putting together

high courts we started putting together

high courts we started putting together this data into a single large database

this data into a single large database

this data into a single large database that we could analyze and we want to

that we could analyze and we want to

that we could analyze and we want to come up with some patterns that Reichel

come up with some patterns that Reichel

come up with some patterns that Reichel either justify or append some of the

either justify or append some of the

either justify or append some of the ideas of solution there have been lots

ideas of solution there have been lots

ideas of solution there have been lots of ideas of solution over the last years

of ideas of solution over the last years

of ideas of solution over the last years and along the way we discover the

and along the way we discover the

and along the way we discover the government has this phenomenal project

government has this phenomenal project

government has this phenomenal project called the e court system which every

called the e court system which every

called the e court system which every day brings up details of every single

day brings up details of every single

day brings up details of every single hearing in this country I mean imagine

hearing in this country I mean imagine

hearing in this country I mean imagine 752 752

hey let’s just double the number of

hey let’s just double the number of judges

judges

judges really you guys all are looking to get

really you guys all are looking to get

really you guys all are looking to get into tech are in tech you can’t find 100

into tech are in tech you can’t find 100

into tech are in tech you can’t find 100 software engineers in this country in

software engineers in this country in

software engineers in this country in time can you find 21,000 new judges but

time can you find 21,000 new judges but

time can you find 21,000 new judges but let’s leave that issue out aside just

let’s leave that issue out aside just

let’s leave that issue out aside just look at the numbers in India we file

look at the numbers in India we file

look at the numbers in India we file between 10 and 12 million new cases

between 10 and 12 million new cases

between 10 and 12 million new cases every year nearly a million cases every

every year nearly a million cases every

every year nearly a million cases every month and we resolve actually over the

month and we resolve actually over the

month and we resolve actually over the last couple of years this system has

last couple of years this system has

last couple of years this system has moved significantly faster we resolve

moved significantly faster we resolve

moved significantly faster we resolve nearly 15 million cases but over the

nearly 15 million cases but over the

nearly 15 million cases but over the last 25 years we have created this

last 25 years we have created this

last 25 years we have created this backlog of 25 million cases so on

backlog of 25 million cases so on

backlog of 25 million cases so on average it will take us another 12 to 15

average it will take us another 12 to 15

average it will take us another 12 to 15 years to resolve the backlog on the

years to resolve the backlog on the

years to resolve the backlog on the other hand in the United States ok

other hand in the United States ok

other hand in the United States ok I know the United States is a different

I know the United States is a different

I know the United States is a different country they don’t light a lamp on the

country they don’t light a lamp on the

country they don’t light a lamp on the stage and kick off the shoes before they

stage and kick off the shoes before they

stage and kick off the shoes before they come on stage yes I know we’re different

come on stage yes I know we’re different

come on stage yes I know we’re different culture but numbers are numbers right

culture but numbers are numbers right

culture but numbers are numbers right the United States sees ninety to a

the United States sees ninety to a

the United States sees ninety to a hundred million cases every year with

hundred million cases every year with

hundred million cases every year with 37,000 judges less than twice the number

37,000 judges less than twice the number

37,000 judges less than twice the number we have and nearly ten times the number

we have and nearly ten times the number

we have and nearly ten times the number of cases

of cases

of cases there must be something we’re doing

there must be something we’re doing

there must be something we’re doing wrong but you know some of you might

wrong but you know some of you might

wrong but you know some of you might think why does that matter like I said

think why does that matter like I said

think why does that matter like I said earlier the market has moved there are

earlier the market has moved there are

earlier the market has moved there are other ways of resolving justice why do

other ways of resolving justice why do

other ways of resolving justice why do we need to fix the system right well

we need to fix the system right well

we need to fix the system right well let’s look at this cup that I was

let’s look at this cup that I was

let’s look at this cup that I was talking about I have one question

talking about I have one question

talking about I have one question where’s the widow where is the woman who

where’s the widow where is the woman who

where’s the widow where is the woman who raised the issue by cop rules

raised the issue by cop rules

raised the issue by cop rules she cannot attend the panchayat by cop

she cannot attend the panchayat by cop

she cannot attend the panchayat by cop rules the person whose life you’re

rules the person whose life you’re

rules the person whose life you’re deciding on can’t be in the process and

deciding on can’t be in the process and

deciding on can’t be in the process and look at what she was fighting look at

look at what she was fighting look at

look at what she was fighting look at the custom itself how did this custom

the custom itself how did this custom

the custom itself how did this custom come

come

come this is part of the justice system that

this is part of the justice system that

this is part of the justice system that they’re going to how did this custom

they’re going to how did this custom

they’re going to how did this custom come about the custom is very simple

come about the custom is very simple

come about the custom is very simple it’s about land when the man dies if his

it’s about land when the man dies if his

it’s about land when the man dies if his wife marries his brother the land stays

wife marries his brother the land stays

wife marries his brother the land stays in the family simple problem solved if

in the family simple problem solved if

in the family simple problem solved if she had gone to the judicial system

she had gone to the judicial system

she had gone to the judicial system there will be no question the assets are

there will be no question the assets are

there will be no question the assets are hers

hers

hers the children are hers she’s got a deal

the children are hers she’s got a deal

the children are hers she’s got a deal with them that’s the big difference you

with them that’s the big difference you

with them that’s the big difference you know the reality is the judicial system

know the reality is the judicial system

know the reality is the judicial system is absolutely the only thing that is

is absolutely the only thing that is

is absolutely the only thing that is fighting for our rights there is no

fighting for our rights there is no

fighting for our rights there is no other institution nobody has accused

other institution nobody has accused

other institution nobody has accused legislature of fighting for rights let’s

legislature of fighting for rights let’s

legislature of fighting for rights let’s face it right not the administrative not

face it right not the administrative not

face it right not the administrative not the legislature the judicial system is

the legislature the judicial system is

the legislature the judicial system is what fights for a right your your and my

what fights for a right your your and my

what fights for a right your your and my rights and without bias and with

rights and without bias and with

rights and without bias and with complete fairness you don’t go out and

complete fairness you don’t go out and

complete fairness you don’t go out and say oh to people from different cars

say oh to people from different cars

say oh to people from different cars want to get married go hang them from

want to get married go hang them from

want to get married go hang them from the other street that’s not justice

the other street that’s not justice

the other street that’s not justice that’s what the judicial system does for

that’s what the judicial system does for

that’s what the judicial system does for us so we’ve got to fix this so to fix it

us so we’ve got to fix this so to fix it

us so we’ve got to fix this so to fix it we went and looked at this data we said

we went and looked at this data we said

we went and looked at this data we said okay let’s try and solve the problem at

okay let’s try and solve the problem at

okay let’s try and solve the problem at a very simple level let’s not take huge

a very simple level let’s not take huge

a very simple level let’s not take huge weights of cut-side this so let’s look

weights of cut-side this so let’s look

weights of cut-side this so let’s look at one simple set of Statistics in a

at one simple set of Statistics in a

at one simple set of Statistics in a typical courthouse on a daily basis

typical courthouse on a daily basis

typical courthouse on a daily basis there are 70 to 80 hearings that is 20

there are 70 to 80 hearings that is 20

there are 70 to 80 hearings that is 20 70 to 80 cases that come up in front of

70 to 80 cases that come up in front of

70 to 80 cases that come up in front of the judge let me give you a sense for

the judge let me give you a sense for

the judge let me give you a sense for that number

that number

that number an average Bank support executive

an average Bank support executive

an average Bank support executive handles 80 calls a day have you ever

handles 80 calls a day have you ever

handles 80 calls a day have you ever thought the bank support executive has

thought the bank support executive has

thought the bank support executive has given enough attention to your problem

given enough attention to your problem

given enough attention to your problem so what’s the judge to do it’s very

so what’s the judge to do it’s very

so what’s the judge to do it’s very simple first of all of the 70 or 80

simple first of all of the 70 or 80

simple first of all of the 70 or 80 cases fully 30 of them aren’t even reach

cases fully 30 of them aren’t even reach

cases fully 30 of them aren’t even reach there’s this word that lawyers will tell

there’s this word that lawyers will tell

there’s this word that lawyers will tell you it’s not reached because you’re

you it’s not reached because you’re

you it’s not reached because you’re item number 56 on the agenda there is no

item number 56 on the agenda there is no

item number 56 on the agenda there is no way the judge has the time to come and

way the judge has the time to come and

way the judge has the time to come and talk to you so that’s gone of the rest

talk to you so that’s gone of the rest

talk to you so that’s gone of the rest about 35% we did the time and motion

about 35% we did the time and motion

about 35% we did the time and motion study in multiple courts in this country

study in multiple courts in this country

study in multiple courts in this country and we found about 35 percent of the

and we found about 35 percent of the

and we found about 35 percent of the cases that actually are reached are

cases that actually are reached are

cases that actually are reached are pushed aside because of administrative

pushed aside because of administrative

pushed aside because of administrative issues paperwork has not been filed

issues paperwork has not been filed

issues paperwork has not been filed warrants have not been delivered all

warrants have not been delivered all

warrants have not been delivered all these issues which the judge has to deal

these issues which the judge has to deal

these issues which the judge has to deal with and so finally the judge actually

with and so finally the judge actually

with and so finally the judge actually hears 25 to 30 cases every single day so

hears 25 to 30 cases every single day so

hears 25 to 30 cases every single day so he said we gotta fix this but where to

he said we gotta fix this but where to

he said we gotta fix this but where to fix this with two major carry-outs

fix this with two major carry-outs

fix this with two major carry-outs number one we are not going to ask for

number one we are not going to ask for

number one we are not going to ask for legislative changes not just because it

legislative changes not just because it

legislative changes not just because it can’t be done I mean that will take

can’t be done I mean that will take

can’t be done I mean that will take years but because we have to implement

years but because we have to implement

years but because we have to implement something in the short-term that is

something in the short-term that is

something in the short-term that is easily accessible so that’s the more one

easily accessible so that’s the more one

easily accessible so that’s the more one and number two will try and not change

and number two will try and not change

and number two will try and not change the last mile courts have pathetic

the last mile courts have pathetic

the last mile courts have pathetic infrastructure some of them don’t have

infrastructure some of them don’t have

infrastructure some of them don’t have bathrooms some of them don’t have roofs

bathrooms some of them don’t have roofs

bathrooms some of them don’t have roofs I am I would love to go to them and say

I am I would love to go to them and say

I am I would love to go to them and say I’ll give every judge an iPad it ain’t

I’ll give every judge an iPad it ain’t

I’ll give every judge an iPad it ain’t gonna work

gonna work

gonna work so let’s find something that’s fit

so let’s find something that’s fit

so let’s find something that’s fit within those frameworks so based on that

within those frameworks so based on that

within those frameworks so based on that we came up with some suggestions we have

we came up with some suggestions we have

we came up with some suggestions we have actually submitted this to multiple

actually submitted this to multiple

actually submitted this to multiple courts and we are starting a process to

courts and we are starting a process to

courts and we are starting a process to make some implementations number one

make some implementations number one

make some implementations number one autosuggest dates now particularly in

autosuggest dates now particularly in

autosuggest dates now particularly in Bangalore you guys will all be seriously

Bangalore you guys will all be seriously

Bangalore you guys will all be seriously into technology you know what

into technology you know what

into technology you know what calendaring and so on and so forth is

calendaring and so on and so forth is

calendaring and so on and so forth is but you should watch the process in a

but you should watch the process in a

but you should watch the process in a lower court the judge will stand you

lower court the judge will stand you

lower court the judge will stand you know sit down go through his processes

know sit down go through his processes

know sit down go through his processes for the day call up a hearing whatever

for the day call up a hearing whatever

for the day call up a hearing whatever issues with that hearing solved and he

issues with that hearing solved and he

issues with that hearing solved and he calls for the next date for that

calls for the next date for that

calls for the next date for that particular case and he’ll say okay today

particular case and he’ll say okay today

particular case and he’ll say okay today is the 16th of October let’s meet on the

is the 16th of October let’s meet on the

is the 16th of October let’s meet on the you know 23rd of November so the

you know 23rd of November so the

you know 23rd of November so the prosecuting attorney will stand up and

prosecuting attorney will stand up and

prosecuting attorney will stand up and say well you know what 23rd of November

say well you know what 23rd of November

say well you know what 23rd of November what works for me because my wife’s

what works for me because my wife’s

what works for me because my wife’s brother’s father-in-law sister’s mother

brother’s father-in-law sister’s mother

brother’s father-in-law sister’s mother is getting married or some such thing so

is getting married or some such thing so

is getting married or some such thing so I can’t do that so let’s make it a third

I can’t do that so let’s make it a third

I can’t do that so let’s make it a third of December and the opposing attorney

of December and the opposing attorney

of December and the opposing attorney would say huh third of December no no no

would say huh third of December no no no

would say huh third of December no no no there’s some other problem I had to go

there’s some other problem I had to go

there’s some other problem I had to go to my village for a wedding whatever

to my village for a wedding whatever

to my village for a wedding whatever yeah they are air it’s not gonna happen

yeah they are air it’s not gonna happen

yeah they are air it’s not gonna happen so the judge is going to stand up listen

so the judge is going to stand up listen

so the judge is going to stand up listen I’m going to take this let’s just pick a

I’m going to take this let’s just pick a

I’m going to take this let’s just pick a number I’m going to pick a number 6th of

number I’m going to pick a number 6th of

number I’m going to pick a number 6th of December done move on the pity is the

December done move on the pity is the

December done move on the pity is the judge has no idea what he’s got going on

judge has no idea what he’s got going on

judge has no idea what he’s got going on the 6th of December because there’s no

the 6th of December because there’s no

the 6th of December because there’s no calendaring there is a register that

calendaring there is a register that

calendaring there is a register that somebody maintains in relevant but that

somebody maintains in relevant but that

somebody maintains in relevant but that level of detail is not maintained so on

level of detail is not maintained so on

level of detail is not maintained so on the 6th of December guess what you have

the 6th of December guess what you have

the 6th of December guess what you have another 80 cases just the way it is so

another 80 cases just the way it is so

another 80 cases just the way it is so if we can write software for cars that

if we can write software for cars that

if we can write software for cars that can drive themselves we can write this

can drive themselves we can write this

can drive themselves we can write this software so we’re saying let’s auto

software so we’re saying let’s auto

software so we’re saying let’s auto assign dates number one number two we

assign dates number one number two we

assign dates number one number two we know the judge just know everybody knows

know the judge just know everybody knows

know the judge just know everybody knows that there’s a whole lot of time spent

that there’s a whole lot of time spent

that there’s a whole lot of time spent on these administrative issues so let’s

on these administrative issues so let’s

on these administrative issues so let’s get people like retired judges let’s get

get people like retired judges let’s get

get people like retired judges let’s get them to do what we call non judicial

them to do what we call non judicial

them to do what we call non judicial tasks let them deal with the

tasks let them deal with the

tasks let them deal with the administrative tasks and number three

administrative tasks and number three

administrative tasks and number three and this is kind of important in terms

and this is kind of important in terms

and this is kind of important in terms of behavior change

of behavior change

of behavior change let’s incentivize good behavior we

let’s incentivize good behavior we

let’s incentivize good behavior we typically penalize bad behavior that’s

typically penalize bad behavior that’s

typically penalize bad behavior that’s the government model and we are saying

the government model and we are saying

the government model and we are saying let’s go out and incentivize good

let’s go out and incentivize good

let’s go out and incentivize good behavior

behavior

behavior send out an SMS saying hey you’re

send out an SMS saying hey you’re

send out an SMS saying hey you’re hearing on Monday if you don’t appear

hearing on Monday if you don’t appear

hearing on Monday if you don’t appear there it’s going to be 23rd and remember

there it’s going to be 23rd and remember

there it’s going to be 23rd and remember whatever you know that kind of stuff

whatever you know that kind of stuff

whatever you know that kind of stuff gives both litigants and lawyers a sense

gives both litigants and lawyers a sense

gives both litigants and lawyers a sense that they must do what they’re expected

that they must do what they’re expected

that they must do what they’re expected to do I believe that if we do this and a

to do I believe that if we do this and a

to do I believe that if we do this and a few other things we can actually read in

few other things we can actually read in

few other things we can actually read in whole holy NL full measure like someone

whole holy NL full measure like someone

whole holy NL full measure like someone said our promise of justice liberty and

said our promise of justice liberty and

said our promise of justice liberty and equality thank you

”

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