as the saying goes better the devil you know than the devil you don’t but is
know than the devil you don’t but is
know than the devil you don’t but is that really the case hi I’m Rebecca
that really the case hi I’m Rebecca
that really the case hi I’m Rebecca Brayton and welcome to watchmojo.com and
Brayton and welcome to watchmojo.com and
Brayton and welcome to watchmojo.com and today we’re speaking with Libyan author
today we’re speaking with Libyan author
today we’re speaking with Libyan author his shemitah’ about the conflict in
his shemitah’ about the conflict in
his shemitah’ about the conflict in Libya Muammar Gaddafi’s dictatorship and
Libya Muammar Gaddafi’s dictatorship and
Libya Muammar Gaddafi’s dictatorship and what it means for the Libyan people it
what it means for the Libyan people it
what it means for the Libyan people it would be important to get some context
would be important to get some context
would be important to get some context as to what’s going on in Libya today and
as to what’s going on in Libya today and
as to what’s going on in Libya today and what has been going on would you be able
what has been going on would you be able
what has been going on would you be able to distill the core conflicts that are
to distill the core conflicts that are
to distill the core conflicts that are at play there
at play there
at play there of course it’s incredibly important to
of course it’s incredibly important to
of course it’s incredibly important to get rid of these terrible dictatorships
get rid of these terrible dictatorships
get rid of these terrible dictatorships but I think what is what is what is more
but I think what is what is what is more
but I think what is what is what is more magical about what’s happening is that
magical about what’s happening is that
magical about what’s happening is that it is a moment that a people suddenly
it is a moment that a people suddenly
it is a moment that a people suddenly realize that they can change the reality
realize that they can change the reality
realize that they can change the reality it commits them to questions to do with
it commits them to questions to do with
it commits them to questions to do with what does it mean to be a people what
what does it mean to be a people what
what does it mean to be a people what sort of society do we want to have what
sort of society do we want to have what
sort of society do we want to have what are our aspirations what is our identity
are our aspirations what is our identity
are our aspirations what is our identity and all these conversations are
and all these conversations are
and all these conversations are fantastically stimulating not only to
fantastically stimulating not only to
fantastically stimulating not only to the confidence of people but it’s their
the confidence of people but it’s their
the confidence of people but it’s their stimulating culturally to one thing that
stimulating culturally to one thing that
stimulating culturally to one thing that is difficult to explain to people who
is difficult to explain to people who
is difficult to explain to people who don’t know the Libyan reality is that
don’t know the Libyan reality is that
don’t know the Libyan reality is that for the last 42 years we’ve known
for the last 42 years we’ve known
for the last 42 years we’ve known exactly what is expected out of us we
exactly what is expected out of us we
exactly what is expected out of us we knew what’s gonna happen next
knew what’s gonna happen next
knew what’s gonna happen next we knew what books we should read what
we knew what books we should read what
we knew what books we should read what books we shouldn’t read we knew what how
books we shouldn’t read we knew what how
books we shouldn’t read we knew what how we should behave suddenly we don’t and
we should behave suddenly we don’t and
we should behave suddenly we don’t and of course that uncertainty carries with
of course that uncertainty carries with
of course that uncertainty carries with it a sense of anxiety people are worried
it a sense of anxiety people are worried
it a sense of anxiety people are worried what is going well what are we going to
what is going well what are we going to
what is going well what are we going to end up with but I think more importantly
end up with but I think more importantly
end up with but I think more importantly what it carries with it is a sense of
what it carries with it is a sense of
what it carries with it is a sense of hope and excitement and also maturity
hope and excitement and also maturity
hope and excitement and also maturity because I think deciding what sort of
because I think deciding what sort of
because I think deciding what sort of society wants is a is a mature act and
society wants is a is a mature act and
society wants is a is a mature act and it invites people into a dialogue that
it invites people into a dialogue that
it invites people into a dialogue that is profoundly important and and I’ve
is profoundly important and and I’ve
is profoundly important and and I’ve noticed this kind of stimulation to the
noticed this kind of stimulation to the
noticed this kind of stimulation to the public dialogue in Libya amongst all
public dialogue in Libya amongst all
public dialogue in Libya amongst all sorts of very different people
sorts of very different people
sorts of very different people tell us about Gaddafi himself what kind
tell us about Gaddafi himself what kind
tell us about Gaddafi himself what kind of ruler he is and his dictatorship and
of ruler he is and his dictatorship and
of ruler he is and his dictatorship and his tactics
his tactics
his tactics he’s unique amongst dictators in the
he’s unique amongst dictators in the
he’s unique amongst dictators in the sense that he is the state and lots of
sense that he is the state and lots of
sense that he is the state and lots of people who want to understand Libya find
people who want to understand Libya find
people who want to understand Libya find that very difficult to to grasp in the
that very difficult to to grasp in the
that very difficult to to grasp in the sense that there are no institutions
sense that there are no institutions
sense that there are no institutions there is no such thing as an army
there is no such thing as an army
there is no such thing as an army particularly after 1990s when Qaddafi
particularly after 1990s when Qaddafi
particularly after 1990s when Qaddafi realized that the
realized that the
realized that the is starting to resemble a proper army
is starting to resemble a proper army
is starting to resemble a proper army and therefore he can’t influence it and
and therefore he can’t influence it and
and therefore he can’t influence it and all the ways he wanted to he started to
all the ways he wanted to he started to
all the ways he wanted to he started to dismantle it and so what you end up with
dismantle it and so what you end up with
dismantle it and so what you end up with is militias really you know brigades
is militias really you know brigades
is militias really you know brigades that are loyal to him so that’s one of
that are loyal to him so that’s one of
that are loyal to him so that’s one of the ways that he is unique the other way
the ways that he is unique the other way
the ways that he is unique the other way is that he is like most dictators
is that he is like most dictators
is that he is like most dictators incredibly intrusive he has intruded
incredibly intrusive he has intruded
incredibly intrusive he has intruded into every little crevice of Libyan
into every little crevice of Libyan
into every little crevice of Libyan public life one of the first things he
public life one of the first things he
public life one of the first things he did is he destroyed civic life so all
did is he destroyed civic life so all
did is he destroyed civic life so all the theaters all the cinemas anything
the theaters all the cinemas anything
the theaters all the cinemas anything that caused for public participation
that caused for public participation
that caused for public participation festivals unions law societies were
festivals unions law societies were
festivals unions law societies were immediately destroyed and in fact even
immediately destroyed and in fact even
immediately destroyed and in fact even football became a threat because
football became a threat because
football became a threat because suddenly you know there all these people
suddenly you know there all these people
suddenly you know there all these people that gather to watch a game so he banned
that gather to watch a game so he banned
that gather to watch a game so he banned football for a good ten years there is
football for a good ten years there is
football for a good ten years there is design to the madness you know it was
design to the madness you know it was
design to the madness you know it was because he’s a very easy person to
because he’s a very easy person to
because he’s a very easy person to caricature but I think that misses how
caricature but I think that misses how
caricature but I think that misses how incredibly intelligent and able he has
incredibly intelligent and able he has
incredibly intelligent and able he has been and cunning to to control this
been and cunning to to control this
been and cunning to to control this small country and I think the curious
small country and I think the curious
small country and I think the curious thing about dictatorship any type of
thing about dictatorship any type of
thing about dictatorship any type of dictatorship is that it looks incredibly
dictatorship is that it looks incredibly
dictatorship is that it looks incredibly powerful and in control all the time and
powerful and in control all the time and
powerful and in control all the time and sometimes that blocks the imagination
sometimes that blocks the imagination
sometimes that blocks the imagination from imagining any other reality and
from imagining any other reality and
from imagining any other reality and many Libyans have surrendered I think in
many Libyans have surrendered I think in
many Libyans have surrendered I think in their quiet hours to the conclusion that
their quiet hours to the conclusion that
their quiet hours to the conclusion that it’s going to be like this forever
it’s going to be like this forever
it’s going to be like this forever Gaddafi’s been around so long that most
Gaddafi’s been around so long that most
Gaddafi’s been around so long that most of Libyans have been born after because
of Libyans have been born after because
of Libyans have been born after because Libya is an incredibly youthful country
Libya is an incredibly youthful country
Libya is an incredibly youthful country according to that theory that means that
according to that theory that means that
according to that theory that means that they’re dictatorships project has been
they’re dictatorships project has been
they’re dictatorships project has been comprehensive on them there’s no way
comprehensive on them there’s no way
comprehensive on them there’s no way these people are going to rise because
these people are going to rise because
these people are going to rise because they don’t know any other reality and
they don’t know any other reality and
they don’t know any other reality and now we see no actually no it’s the
now we see no actually no it’s the
now we see no actually no it’s the opposite it’s exactly because the
opposite it’s exactly because the
opposite it’s exactly because the majority of Libyans are youthful and
majority of Libyans are youthful and
majority of Libyans are youthful and have the recklessness and the audacity
have the recklessness and the audacity
have the recklessness and the audacity and the madness and the ambition and the
and the madness and the ambition and the
and the madness and the ambition and the hope of youth also exactly because the
hope of youth also exactly because the
hope of youth also exactly because the influence of the dictatorship on them
influence of the dictatorship on them
influence of the dictatorship on them has been so comprehensive they can’t
has been so comprehensive they can’t
has been so comprehensive they can’t give it any benefit of the doubt there’s
give it any benefit of the doubt there’s
give it any benefit of the doubt there’s they know exactly what it’s about that
they know exactly what it’s about that
they know exactly what it’s about that they’ve risen and you know it’s been led
they’ve risen and you know it’s been led
they’ve risen and you know it’s been led by people how would you describe the
by people how would you describe the
by people how would you describe the relationship between America Europe and
relationship between America Europe and
relationship between America Europe and the Gaddafi regime it’s a relationship
the Gaddafi regime it’s a relationship
the Gaddafi regime it’s a relationship that is on some level scandalous because
that is on some level scandalous because
that is on some level scandalous because particularly after 2003 when the
particularly after 2003 when the
particularly after 2003 when the international community headed by xx
international community headed by xx
international community headed by xx Blair who went to Libya shook hands with
Blair who went to Libya shook hands with
Blair who went to Libya shook hands with Qaddafi called him or North African
Qaddafi called him or North African
Qaddafi called him or North African friend and very respectable governments
friend and very respectable governments
friend and very respectable governments started to treat Qaddafi with respect
started to treat Qaddafi with respect
started to treat Qaddafi with respect the argument for that was that this will
the argument for that was that this will
the argument for that was that this will motivate him to be more open and to
motivate him to be more open and to
motivate him to be more open and to engage in to reform we can see now that
engage in to reform we can see now that
engage in to reform we can see now that actually it’s it’s exactly the opposite
actually it’s it’s exactly the opposite
actually it’s it’s exactly the opposite that treatment gave him legitimacy made
that treatment gave him legitimacy made
that treatment gave him legitimacy made him more able to oppress his own people
him more able to oppress his own people
him more able to oppress his own people arguably extended his already very long
arguably extended his already very long
arguably extended his already very long reign and allowed him to oppress a lot
reign and allowed him to oppress a lot
reign and allowed him to oppress a lot of dissent under the claim that he was
of dissent under the claim that he was
of dissent under the claim that he was fighting terrorism the logic up to now
fighting terrorism the logic up to now
fighting terrorism the logic up to now is that you know these people can’t be
is that you know these people can’t be
is that you know these people can’t be trusted it’s better to have a dictator
trusted it’s better to have a dictator
trusted it’s better to have a dictator even if he’s ruthless and violent that
even if he’s ruthless and violent that
even if he’s ruthless and violent that is holds them in his grip and that he is
is holds them in his grip and that he is
is holds them in his grip and that he is somewhat loyal to us at least we know
somewhat loyal to us at least we know
somewhat loyal to us at least we know how he’s going to behave
how he’s going to behave
how he’s going to behave hopefully that’s now being superseded by
hopefully that’s now being superseded by
hopefully that’s now being superseded by the idea that actually no the more
the idea that actually no the more
the idea that actually no the more consistent and more honorable engagement
consistent and more honorable engagement
consistent and more honorable engagement and desire for stability has to arise
and desire for stability has to arise
and desire for stability has to arise from a people’s will to be expressed to
from a people’s will to be expressed to
from a people’s will to be expressed to decide how they want to live their lives
decide how they want to live their lives
decide how they want to live their lives one of the troubling things about
one of the troubling things about
one of the troubling things about international politics is that you
international politics is that you
international politics is that you realize that people prefer to deal with
realize that people prefer to deal with
realize that people prefer to deal with somebody they know than when something
somebody they know than when something
somebody they know than when something that was somebody that is good or bad or
that was somebody that is good or bad or
that was somebody that is good or bad or they don’t think of those terms you know
they don’t think of those terms you know
they don’t think of those terms you know and I’m hoping that all of this dramatic
and I’m hoping that all of this dramatic
and I’m hoping that all of this dramatic change will maybe make us all revisit
change will maybe make us all revisit
change will maybe make us all revisit that a bit thank you very much
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