[Applause] [Music]
good evening why do people commit
good evening why do people commit violent acts what motivates someone to
violent acts what motivates someone to
violent acts what motivates someone to kill or injure another person this is a
kill or injure another person this is a
kill or injure another person this is a question that has occupied philosophers
question that has occupied philosophers
question that has occupied philosophers since the time of Aristotle or even
since the time of Aristotle or even
since the time of Aristotle or even before iris tatl and a disclaimer before
before iris tatl and a disclaimer before
before iris tatl and a disclaimer before we begin we will not be solving this
we begin we will not be solving this
we begin we will not be solving this issue tonight
issue tonight
issue tonight now terrorism is a topic we’re likely
now terrorism is a topic we’re likely
now terrorism is a topic we’re likely all familiar with we live in an era too
all familiar with we live in an era too
all familiar with we live in an era too often marred by terrorist attacks and we
often marred by terrorist attacks and we
often marred by terrorist attacks and we live under more counterterrorism laws
live under more counterterrorism laws
live under more counterterrorism laws than at any time in history before now
than at any time in history before now
than at any time in history before now you’re sitting tonight in the
you’re sitting tonight in the
you’re sitting tonight in the institution of learning yet this
institution of learning yet this
institution of learning yet this university itself has to practice
university itself has to practice
university itself has to practice counterterrorism all GP surgeries all
counterterrorism all GP surgeries all
counterterrorism all GP surgeries all hospitals or schools and all
hospitals or schools and all
hospitals or schools and all universities all have to practice
universities all have to practice
universities all have to practice counterterrorism to prevent people
counterterrorism to prevent people
counterterrorism to prevent people becoming involved in terrorist acts so
becoming involved in terrorist acts so
becoming involved in terrorist acts so we’re all very familiar with this topic
we’re all very familiar with this topic
we’re all very familiar with this topic whether aware of the legal details or
whether aware of the legal details or
whether aware of the legal details or not but tonight I will help try to help
not but tonight I will help try to help
not but tonight I will help try to help you see terrorism from a new perspective
you see terrorism from a new perspective
you see terrorism from a new perspective not one looking at causes or prediction
not one looking at causes or prediction
not one looking at causes or prediction but one of understanding the motivations
but one of understanding the motivations
but one of understanding the motivations perhaps of people that get involved in
perhaps of people that get involved in
perhaps of people that get involved in violent struggle so what do I mean by
violent struggle so what do I mean by
violent struggle so what do I mean by this
this
this for tonight’s talk I want to separate
for tonight’s talk I want to separate
for tonight’s talk I want to separate understanding from prediction or causal
understanding from prediction or causal
understanding from prediction or causal analysis or even preventative measures I
analysis or even preventative measures I
analysis or even preventative measures I want to ask you to think about
want to ask you to think about
want to ask you to think about understanding as something different
understanding as something different
understanding as something different from those kinds of predictive causal
from those kinds of predictive causal
from those kinds of predictive causal activity when you do a causal analysis
activity when you do a causal analysis
activity when you do a causal analysis what you do is you have to abstract from
what you do is you have to abstract from
what you do is you have to abstract from the situation in front of you to do a
the situation in front of you to do a
the situation in front of you to do a causal analysis you have to create a
causal analysis you have to create a
causal analysis you have to create a category a class of phenomenon which
category a class of phenomenon which
category a class of phenomenon which involves basically creating a box and
involves basically creating a box and
involves basically creating a box and fitting a very large array of actors and
fitting a very large array of actors and
fitting a very large array of actors and events inside that one box and
events inside that one box and
events inside that one box and abstracting from the detail of each of
abstracting from the detail of each of
abstracting from the detail of each of them and the context of each of them so
them and the context of each of them so
them and the context of each of them so you collect anti-colonial struggles you
you collect anti-colonial struggles you
you collect anti-colonial struggles you collect
collect
collect it’s lone wolves who tape automatic
it’s lone wolves who tape automatic
it’s lone wolves who tape automatic weapons up a high-rise building in Las
weapons up a high-rise building in Las
weapons up a high-rise building in Las Vegas you take Isis you take al-qaeda
Vegas you take Isis you take al-qaeda
Vegas you take Isis you take al-qaeda and you put them all in the same box and
and you put them all in the same box and
and you put them all in the same box and call it terrorism and when you’re
call it terrorism and when you’re
call it terrorism and when you’re looking for the causes of terrorism you
looking for the causes of terrorism you
looking for the causes of terrorism you generalize you abstract from what each
generalize you abstract from what each
generalize you abstract from what each of these struggles was about and who
of these struggles was about and who
of these struggles was about and who each of these people were and instead
each of these people were and instead
each of these people were and instead you look for what they all hold in
you look for what they all hold in
you look for what they all hold in common what is it that they hold in
common what is it that they hold in
common what is it that they hold in common that if you took away well would
common that if you took away well would
common that if you took away well would stop violence from happening is it
stop violence from happening is it
stop violence from happening is it mental illness is it poverty is it
mental illness is it poverty is it
mental illness is it poverty is it exclusion from society and in this type
exclusion from society and in this type
exclusion from society and in this type of causal analysis is very unlikely that
of causal analysis is very unlikely that
of causal analysis is very unlikely that you’d actually go and ask the person why
you’d actually go and ask the person why
you’d actually go and ask the person why did you do this so in a causal analysis
did you do this so in a causal analysis
did you do this so in a causal analysis you’re unlikely to use a talking
you’re unlikely to use a talking
you’re unlikely to use a talking methodology you’re unlikely to actually
methodology you’re unlikely to actually
methodology you’re unlikely to actually ask somebody why did you get involved in
ask somebody why did you get involved in
ask somebody why did you get involved in this struggle why would you want to ask
this struggle why would you want to ask
this struggle why would you want to ask them anyway I mean they’re unreliable
them anyway I mean they’re unreliable
them anyway I mean they’re unreliable they could lie to you about why you
they could lie to you about why you
they could lie to you about why you became involved in political violence
became involved in political violence
became involved in political violence they might even not know the factors
they might even not know the factors
they might even not know the factors that led them to become involved in
that led them to become involved in
that led them to become involved in political violence these are all reasons
political violence these are all reasons
political violence these are all reasons our causal analysis would give you for
our causal analysis would give you for
our causal analysis would give you for not directly asking the person economic
not directly asking the person economic
not directly asking the person economic and statistical methodologies they don’t
and statistical methodologies they don’t
and statistical methodologies they don’t really care about the motivation of the
really care about the motivation of the
really care about the motivation of the person how they felt before they got
person how they felt before they got
person how they felt before they got involved in struggle or before they
involved in struggle or before they
involved in struggle or before they committed a violent act motivation is is
committed a violent act motivation is is
committed a violent act motivation is is irrelevant in these types of analyses
irrelevant in these types of analyses
irrelevant in these types of analyses also if you have that general enormous
also if you have that general enormous
also if you have that general enormous box where you’ve put all the different
box where you’ve put all the different
box where you’ve put all the different actors inside you wouldn’t be able to
actors inside you wouldn’t be able to
actors inside you wouldn’t be able to talk to every single one of them so why
talk to every single one of them so why
talk to every single one of them so why would you use talking in the first place
would you use talking in the first place
would you use talking in the first place but I don’t want to give you the wrong
but I don’t want to give you the wrong
but I don’t want to give you the wrong impression there are some very good
impression there are some very good
impression there are some very good causal analyses out there for example
causal analyses out there for example
causal analyses out there for example Robert Pape did a study of every single
Robert Pape did a study of every single
Robert Pape did a study of every single suicide bombing between 1980 and 2003
suicide bombing between 1980 and 2003
suicide bombing between 1980 and 2003 there were 315 if you’re interested
there were 315 if you’re interested
there were 315 if you’re interested largely they were carried out by the
largely they were carried out by the
largely they were carried out by the Marxist Tamil Tigers Association but
Marxist Tamil Tigers Association but
Marxist Tamil Tigers Association but there were also some Islamist groups
there were also some Islamist groups
there were also some Islamist groups some Sikh groups some Hindu groups etc
some Sikh groups some Hindu groups etc
some Sikh groups some Hindu groups etc etc and what did he find well he found
etc and what did he find well he found
etc and what did he find well he found that they all held something in common
that they all held something in common
that they all held something in common and that is
and that is
and that is an invasion every single case was
an invasion every single case was
an invasion every single case was correlated with foreign occupation and
correlated with foreign occupation and
correlated with foreign occupation and this was important because it caused the
this was important because it caused the
this was important because it caused the use of terrorism as a strategic tactic
use of terrorism as a strategic tactic
use of terrorism as a strategic tactic if you’ve been invaded by an occupying
if you’ve been invaded by an occupying
if you’ve been invaded by an occupying force it’s very unlikely that you can
force it’s very unlikely that you can
force it’s very unlikely that you can raise an army against that occupying
raise an army against that occupying
raise an army against that occupying force you can’t use conventional methods
force you can’t use conventional methods
force you can’t use conventional methods under a situation of occupation instead
under a situation of occupation instead
under a situation of occupation instead you’ve got massive asymmetry between the
you’ve got massive asymmetry between the
you’ve got massive asymmetry between the two sides so what do you do you evolve
two sides so what do you do you evolve
two sides so what do you do you evolve strategically and suicide bombing
strategically and suicide bombing
strategically and suicide bombing becomes a tactic that’s used more
becomes a tactic that’s used more
becomes a tactic that’s used more frequently so is the problem solved do
frequently so is the problem solved do
frequently so is the problem solved do we know what causes terrorism well I’m
we know what causes terrorism well I’m
we know what causes terrorism well I’m guessing you’re likely not satisfied
guessing you’re likely not satisfied
guessing you’re likely not satisfied with that explanation there’s nothing
with that explanation there’s nothing
with that explanation there’s nothing wrong with that particular study it’s
wrong with that particular study it’s
wrong with that particular study it’s just that as people we tend to want to
just that as people we tend to want to
just that as people we tend to want to know the human reasons the motivations
know the human reasons the motivations
know the human reasons the motivations for becoming involved in these type of
for becoming involved in these type of
for becoming involved in these type of acts and that is not included in these
acts and that is not included in these
acts and that is not included in these kind of studies if you want to
kind of studies if you want to
kind of studies if you want to understand the motivation and the human
understand the motivation and the human
understand the motivation and the human reasons for becoming involved in
reasons for becoming involved in
reasons for becoming involved in political violence then you can’t have
political violence then you can’t have
political violence then you can’t have that big box of samples that big box of
that big box of samples that big box of
that big box of samples that big box of examples picking different struggles
examples picking different struggles
examples picking different struggles from all over the world to understand
from all over the world to understand
from all over the world to understand rather than to know and should try and
rather than to know and should try and
rather than to know and should try and predict you have to throw away that box
predict you have to throw away that box
predict you have to throw away that box and focus on one case in particular or
and focus on one case in particular or
and focus on one case in particular or several but do it in depth if you want
several but do it in depth if you want
several but do it in depth if you want to know any kind of answers to the
to know any kind of answers to the
to know any kind of answers to the eternal question of violence why people
eternal question of violence why people
eternal question of violence why people behave violently then you need to
behave violently then you need to
behave violently then you need to understand their motivations and this
understand their motivations and this
understand their motivations and this involves usually drinking quite a lot of
involves usually drinking quite a lot of
involves usually drinking quite a lot of tea with them and talking to them it
tea with them and talking to them it
tea with them and talking to them it also involves quite a lot of moral
also involves quite a lot of moral
also involves quite a lot of moral courage so what I’m asking you to do on
courage so what I’m asking you to do on
courage so what I’m asking you to do on this journey with me tonight is to not
this journey with me tonight is to not
this journey with me tonight is to not instantly bulk at the suggestion that we
instantly bulk at the suggestion that we
instantly bulk at the suggestion that we might be able to empathize with
might be able to empathize with
might be able to empathize with terrorists we are trained to do that we
terrorists we are trained to do that we
terrorists we are trained to do that we are trained to be very uncomfortable
are trained to be very uncomfortable
are trained to be very uncomfortable with feeling any kind of empathy for a
with feeling any kind of empathy for a
with feeling any kind of empathy for a violent person societies have to develop
violent person societies have to develop
violent person societies have to develop that way a society develops around
that way a society develops around
that way a society develops around cooperation and has to externalize
cooperation and has to externalize
cooperation and has to externalize violent actors so you may feel
violent actors so you may feel
violent actors so you may feel uncomfortable at certain points when I
uncomfortable at certain points when I
uncomfortable at certain points when I ask you to listen to the voice of the
ask you to listen to the voice of the
ask you to listen to the voice of the terrorists
terrorists
terrorists listening doesn’t necessarily mean
listening doesn’t necessarily mean
listening doesn’t necessarily mean excusing or agreeing it just means there
excusing or agreeing it just means there
excusing or agreeing it just means there might be a purpose to listening so you
might be a purpose to listening so you
might be a purpose to listening so you can retain the ability to disagree with
can retain the ability to disagree with
can retain the ability to disagree with their actions while you listen to their
their actions while you listen to their
their actions while you listen to their stories how are we going to do this how
stories how are we going to do this how
stories how are we going to do this how are we going to talk to people involved
are we going to talk to people involved
are we going to talk to people involved in political violence well we’ve got
in political violence well we’ve got
in political violence well we’ve got some significant access problems I’ll
some significant access problems I’ll
some significant access problems I’ll give you that we can’t exactly decamp to
give you that we can’t exactly decamp to
give you that we can’t exactly decamp to rocket to go and stand with a microphone
rocket to go and stand with a microphone
rocket to go and stand with a microphone in the streets and try and the interview
in the streets and try and the interview
in the streets and try and the interview Isis it’s too dangerous
Isis it’s too dangerous
Isis it’s too dangerous also the university would never ever
also the university would never ever
also the university would never ever give any of us research permission to go
give any of us research permission to go
give any of us research permission to go out there and do anything however what
out there and do anything however what
out there and do anything however what we can do is we can speak to historical
we can do is we can speak to historical
we can do is we can speak to historical militants those who’ve already been
militants those who’ve already been
militants those who’ve already been through the prison system and come out
through the prison system and come out
through the prison system and come out the other side or those who one their
the other side or those who one their
the other side or those who one their struggles and overturn the state in
struggles and overturn the state in
struggles and overturn the state in question and are now the new leaders
question and are now the new leaders
question and are now the new leaders this is what I did for my PhD I went to
this is what I did for my PhD I went to
this is what I did for my PhD I went to Italy to interview ex militants from
Italy to interview ex militants from
Italy to interview ex militants from what’s called the years of lead which
what’s called the years of lead which
what’s called the years of lead which was in the 70s and the 80s and it’s
was in the 70s and the 80s and it’s
was in the 70s and the 80s and it’s called the years of lead because so many
called the years of lead because so many
called the years of lead because so many shell casings were supposedly left on
shell casings were supposedly left on
shell casings were supposedly left on the streets I also went to Cyprus to
the streets I also went to Cyprus to
the streets I also went to Cyprus to interview a ouka who were an anti
interview a ouka who were an anti
interview a ouka who were an anti colonial insurgency against the British
colonial insurgency against the British
colonial insurgency against the British Empire in the 1950s a ocher in
Empire in the 1950s a ocher in
Empire in the 1950s a ocher in particular were very elderly by the time
particular were very elderly by the time
particular were very elderly by the time I went to speak to them they’d not ever
I went to speak to them they’d not ever
I went to speak to them they’d not ever been to jail because they won their
been to jail because they won their
been to jail because they won their struggle they managed to remove the
struggle they managed to remove the
struggle they managed to remove the British Empire from their islands this
British Empire from their islands this
British Empire from their islands this wasn’t because they were highly skilled
wasn’t because they were highly skilled
wasn’t because they were highly skilled it was largely quite have put together
it was largely quite have put together
it was largely quite have put together with nuts and bolts kind of insurgency
with nuts and bolts kind of insurgency
with nuts and bolts kind of insurgency but it was the era of decolonization
but it was the era of decolonization
but it was the era of decolonization where lots of these struggles broke out
where lots of these struggles broke out
where lots of these struggles broke out across the world and the Empire was
across the world and the Empire was
across the world and the Empire was looking and trying to stop them all
looking and trying to stop them all
looking and trying to stop them all simultaneously so what happens when you
simultaneously so what happens when you
simultaneously so what happens when you go out and you talk to people that have
go out and you talk to people that have
go out and you talk to people that have been involved in political violence and
been involved in political violence and
been involved in political violence and you ask them their stories enormous
you ask them their stories enormous
you ask them their stories enormous amount of tea an enormous amount of
amount of tea an enormous amount of
amount of tea an enormous amount of coffee these stories sometimes go on for
coffee these stories sometimes go on for
coffee these stories sometimes go on for three or four hours so you get very
three or four hours so you get very
three or four hours so you get very highly caffeinated by the end of them
highly caffeinated by the end of them
highly caffeinated by the end of them soompi
soompi
soompi all are still to this day absolutely
all are still to this day absolutely
all are still to this day absolutely stunned that their lives took this turn
stunned that their lives took this turn
stunned that their lives took this turn and that they ended up smuggling
and that they ended up smuggling
and that they ended up smuggling explosives into a port taking it onto a
explosives into a port taking it onto a
explosives into a port taking it onto a ship planting it and managing to get out
ship planting it and managing to get out
ship planting it and managing to get out again before they sunk the ship by
again before they sunk the ship by
again before they sunk the ship by blowing up the bomb other people are
blowing up the bomb other people are
blowing up the bomb other people are completely shocked and visibly shocked
completely shocked and visibly shocked
completely shocked and visibly shocked that their lives took them down this
that their lives took them down this
that their lives took them down this path that they shot someone and
path that they shot someone and
path that they shot someone and assassinated them in the streets of
assassinated them in the streets of
assassinated them in the streets of Italy other people aren’t shocked at all
Italy other people aren’t shocked at all
Italy other people aren’t shocked at all other people are not ethically
other people are not ethically
other people are not ethically problematizing what they did and don’t
problematizing what they did and don’t
problematizing what they did and don’t seem to bear any kind of trauma or scars
seem to bear any kind of trauma or scars
seem to bear any kind of trauma or scars everybody is different but in each case
everybody is different but in each case
everybody is different but in each case people gave human reasons for why they
people gave human reasons for why they
people gave human reasons for why they got involved in violent violent struggle
got involved in violent violent struggle
got involved in violent violent struggle think about the conditions which might
think about the conditions which might
think about the conditions which might provoke you to join an armed struggle
provoke you to join an armed struggle
provoke you to join an armed struggle and likely you’ll come up with some of
and likely you’ll come up with some of
and likely you’ll come up with some of the same reasons that these interviewees
the same reasons that these interviewees
the same reasons that these interviewees gave to me don’t imagine killing
gave to me don’t imagine killing
gave to me don’t imagine killing civilians right now that’s quite a leap
civilians right now that’s quite a leap
civilians right now that’s quite a leap along the path but imagine fighting an
along the path but imagine fighting an
along the path but imagine fighting an occupying force a tyrant has invaded
occupying force a tyrant has invaded
occupying force a tyrant has invaded your country you’ve tried peaceful
your country you’ve tried peaceful
your country you’ve tried peaceful struggle you’ve tried it for decades
struggle you’ve tried it for decades
struggle you’ve tried it for decades decades decades and it hasn’t worked
decades decades and it hasn’t worked
decades decades and it hasn’t worked what if conditions were getting worse
what if conditions were getting worse
what if conditions were getting worse these are the kinds of stories that were
these are the kinds of stories that were
these are the kinds of stories that were told to me by x-fighters of these
told to me by x-fighters of these
told to me by x-fighters of these organizations in Cyprus they’d tried
organizations in Cyprus they’d tried
organizations in Cyprus they’d tried peaceful methods for 70 years before the
peaceful methods for 70 years before the
peaceful methods for 70 years before the insurgency broke out they tried
insurgency broke out they tried
insurgency broke out they tried referendums where over 95% of the
referendums where over 95% of the
referendums where over 95% of the population voted for democracy and
population voted for democracy and
population voted for democracy and national freedom to remove the Empire
national freedom to remove the Empire
national freedom to remove the Empire from the island they tried peaceful
from the island they tried peaceful
from the island they tried peaceful protests all through the streets of the
protests all through the streets of the
protests all through the streets of the capital and of course nothing worked and
capital and of course nothing worked and
capital and of course nothing worked and then world war 2 came and the British
then world war 2 came and the British
then world war 2 came and the British Empire needed its colonial subjects to
Empire needed its colonial subjects to
Empire needed its colonial subjects to make up the numbers in fighting against
make up the numbers in fighting against
make up the numbers in fighting against the Axis powers so they came to Cyprus
the Axis powers so they came to Cyprus
the Axis powers so they came to Cyprus with an offer we will give you your
with an offer we will give you your
with an offer we will give you your freedom you’ve been asking for it for a
freedom you’ve been asking for it for a
freedom you’ve been asking for it for a long time we’ll give you your liberation
long time we’ll give you your liberation
long time we’ll give you your liberation if you help us fight against the Axis
if you help us fight against the Axis
if you help us fight against the Axis powers and the Cypriots took the deal
powers and the Cypriots took the deal
powers and the Cypriots took the deal they went and fought on the front lines
they went and fought on the front lines
they went and fought on the front lines came back and as we all know that
came back and as we all know that
came back and as we all know that promise was betrayed that’s the point
promise was betrayed that’s the point
promise was betrayed that’s the point where the story turns towards a national
where the story turns towards a national
where the story turns towards a national struggle involving insurgency
struggle involving insurgency
struggle involving insurgency the church in Cyprus began to very
the church in Cyprus began to very
the church in Cyprus began to very vocally support the cause for liberation
vocally support the cause for liberation
vocally support the cause for liberation and the Greek general General Grievous
and the Greek general General Grievous
and the Greek general General Grievous arrived on a ship to Cyprus and began to
arrived on a ship to Cyprus and began to
arrived on a ship to Cyprus and began to organize the insurgency with the local
organize the insurgency with the local
organize the insurgency with the local fighters
fighters
fighters how do people explain this well they
how do people explain this well they
how do people explain this well they explained it seeing a chance for freedom
explained it seeing a chance for freedom
explained it seeing a chance for freedom that they’ve been waiting for their
that they’ve been waiting for their
that they’ve been waiting for their whole lives that even their parents and
whole lives that even their parents and
whole lives that even their parents and grandparents have been waiting for and
grandparents have been waiting for and
grandparents have been waiting for and they saw their friends joining up so why
they saw their friends joining up so why
they saw their friends joining up so why wouldn’t they
wouldn’t they
wouldn’t they they narrated themselves as heroes but I
they narrated themselves as heroes but I
they narrated themselves as heroes but I want to emphasize that they are also
want to emphasize that they are also
want to emphasize that they are also responsible for the division of Cyprus
responsible for the division of Cyprus
responsible for the division of Cyprus in the years afterwards they may have
in the years afterwards they may have
in the years afterwards they may have fought for freedom and they may have
fought for freedom and they may have
fought for freedom and they may have removed the Empire from their islands
removed the Empire from their islands
removed the Empire from their islands but they later suppress the Turkish
but they later suppress the Turkish
but they later suppress the Turkish minority with such brutality that Turkey
minority with such brutality that Turkey
minority with such brutality that Turkey itself invaded Cyprus and the island
itself invaded Cyprus and the island
itself invaded Cyprus and the island remained split to this day Nicosia is
remained split to this day Nicosia is
remained split to this day Nicosia is actually the last divided capital in
actually the last divided capital in
actually the last divided capital in Europe it reminds me of a story that I
Europe it reminds me of a story that I
Europe it reminds me of a story that I heard from a man named Uranus who
heard from a man named Uranus who
heard from a man named Uranus who narrated himself as the perfect heroic
narrated himself as the perfect heroic
narrated himself as the perfect heroic fighter for freedom all he ever wanted
fighter for freedom all he ever wanted
fighter for freedom all he ever wanted to do was fight for the democracy in his
to do was fight for the democracy in his
to do was fight for the democracy in his country and freedom from the air patrol
country and freedom from the air patrol
country and freedom from the air patrol and they’ve taken two soldiers hostage
and they’ve taken two soldiers hostage
and they’ve taken two soldiers hostage and these soldiers were making too much
and these soldiers were making too much
and these soldiers were making too much noise and they were frightened that they
noise and they were frightened that they
noise and they were frightened that they would be discovered by the other groups
would be discovered by the other groups
would be discovered by the other groups of soldiers in the nearby area and so
of soldiers in the nearby area and so
of soldiers in the nearby area and so they knew that they had to kill them and
they knew that they had to kill them and
they knew that they had to kill them and Yanis was visibly upset by this memory
Yanis was visibly upset by this memory
Yanis was visibly upset by this memory because he remembers them being
because he remembers them being
because he remembers them being teenagers he said to me we were shocked
teenagers he said to me we were shocked
teenagers he said to me we were shocked the Empire had sent teenagers to fight
the Empire had sent teenagers to fight
the Empire had sent teenagers to fight us and he was visibly upset when he
us and he was visibly upset when he
us and he was visibly upset when he explained what happens when you prepare
explained what happens when you prepare
explained what happens when you prepare somebody for their own death especially
somebody for their own death especially
somebody for their own death especially when they’re teenagers
when they’re teenagers
when they’re teenagers or they cry for their mother this is why
or they cry for their mother this is why
or they cry for their mother this is why awareness has to narrate himself as a
awareness has to narrate himself as a
awareness has to narrate himself as a hero he has to live with that memory of
hero he has to live with that memory of
hero he has to live with that memory of what he’s done he has to stick to that
what he’s done he has to stick to that
what he’s done he has to stick to that narrative of it all being for a greater
narrative of it all being for a greater
narrative of it all being for a greater cause for a greater good but we don’t
cause for a greater good but we don’t
cause for a greater good but we don’t necessarily have to agree with his
necessarily have to agree with his
necessarily have to agree with his actions while we empathize with how he
actions while we empathize with how he
actions while we empathize with how he tells his story
in Italy X militants also gave very
in Italy X militants also gave very human reasons very human stories for how
human reasons very human stories for how
human reasons very human stories for how they became involved in the militant
they became involved in the militant
they became involved in the militant groups of the years of lead like Cyprus
groups of the years of lead like Cyprus
groups of the years of lead like Cyprus they’d spent a long time deploying
they’d spent a long time deploying
they’d spent a long time deploying peaceful protests to try and improve
peaceful protests to try and improve
peaceful protests to try and improve conditions in Italy in their 60s and 70s
conditions in Italy in their 60s and 70s
conditions in Italy in their 60s and 70s Italy at this time was on the border of
Italy at this time was on the border of
Italy at this time was on the border of the Soviet Union and the capitalist
the Soviet Union and the capitalist
the Soviet Union and the capitalist Western states it had the largest
Western states it had the largest
Western states it had the largest Communist Party for decades by this time
Communist Party for decades by this time
Communist Party for decades by this time it had even won an election after World
it had even won an election after World
it had even won an election after World War two until the CIA into the end of
War two until the CIA into the end of
War two until the CIA into the end of recounted the votes so that the
recounted the votes so that the
recounted the votes so that the Communist Party didn’t win so they tried
Communist Party didn’t win so they tried
Communist Party didn’t win so they tried everything to to pursue their goals
everything to to pursue their goals
everything to to pursue their goals peacefully as one person said to me the
peacefully as one person said to me the
peacefully as one person said to me the movements didn’t wake up one day wanting
movements didn’t wake up one day wanting
movements didn’t wake up one day wanting to be violence they didn’t wake up
to be violence they didn’t wake up
to be violence they didn’t wake up finding automatic weapons under the bed
finding automatic weapons under the bed
finding automatic weapons under the bed this had a very long historical and
this had a very long historical and
this had a very long historical and social build-up it began as a movement
social build-up it began as a movement
social build-up it began as a movement for hope these leftist organizations
for hope these leftist organizations
for hope these leftist organizations they tried to attain housing rights for
they tried to attain housing rights for
they tried to attain housing rights for people because there were no housing
people because there were no housing
people because there were no housing rights for people in those days they
rights for people in those days they
rights for people in those days they pursued women’s rights in a conservative
pursued women’s rights in a conservative
pursued women’s rights in a conservative country they also pursued rights for gay
country they also pursued rights for gay
country they also pursued rights for gay people they were one of the first
people they were one of the first
people they were one of the first struggles to do so in the factories of
struggles to do so in the factories of
struggles to do so in the factories of northern Italy and the government became
northern Italy and the government became
northern Italy and the government became very threatened by the fact that
very threatened by the fact that
very threatened by the fact that hundreds of thousands of people were
hundreds of thousands of people were
hundreds of thousands of people were joining the leftist movements and so it
joining the leftist movements and so it
joining the leftist movements and so it began to scratch that movement it
began to scratch that movement it
began to scratch that movement it deployed fascist groups against them and
deployed fascist groups against them and
deployed fascist groups against them and it’s suppressed the peaceful protests I
it’s suppressed the peaceful protests I
it’s suppressed the peaceful protests I remember vividly when one man said to me
remember vividly when one man said to me
remember vividly when one man said to me I went to a protest one day I was part
I went to a protest one day I was part
I went to a protest one day I was part of the hundreds of thousands of people
of the hundreds of thousands of people
of the hundreds of thousands of people on the streets and the police came with
on the streets and the police came with
on the streets and the police came with their batons and I saw them beat my
their batons and I saw them beat my
their batons and I saw them beat my friend’s head open in front of me and
friend’s head open in front of me and
friend’s head open in front of me and his head exploded and at this point he
his head exploded and at this point he
his head exploded and at this point he reached into a drawer beside him and he
reached into a drawer beside him and he
reached into a drawer beside him and he took out a newspaper and on the front of
took out a newspaper and on the front of
took out a newspaper and on the front of the newspaper was a picture of a man
the newspaper was a picture of a man
the newspaper was a picture of a man lying in the streets with half his brain
lying in the streets with half his brain
lying in the streets with half his brain next to him in the street and this was
next to him in the street and this was
next to him in the street and this was his friend who’d been beaten to death
his friend who’d been beaten to death
his friend who’d been beaten to death during the protest the man that told me
during the protest the man that told me
during the protest the man that told me that story went on to form prima Linea
that story went on to form prima Linea
that story went on to form prima Linea which was the second largest armed group
which was the second largest armed group
which was the second largest armed group in the years of lead in Italy
we can perhaps empathize with some of
we can perhaps empathize with some of the dimensions of his story so the
the dimensions of his story so the
the dimensions of his story so the context for these people becoming
context for these people becoming
context for these people becoming involved in the armed struggle was the
involved in the armed struggle was the
involved in the armed struggle was the 70s and 80s where the state was
70s and 80s where the state was
70s and 80s where the state was deploying fascist groups against them
deploying fascist groups against them
deploying fascist groups against them and the Italian state used these fascist
and the Italian state used these fascist
and the Italian state used these fascist groups to bomb banks to bomb trains and
groups to bomb banks to bomb trains and
groups to bomb banks to bomb trains and abomb train stations in an attempt to
abomb train stations in an attempt to
abomb train stations in an attempt to discredit the leftist movement to
discredit the leftist movement to
discredit the leftist movement to associate them with this carnage and the
associate them with this carnage and the
associate them with this carnage and the leftist movement knew exactly what the
leftist movement knew exactly what the
leftist movement knew exactly what the state were doing so they picked up guns
state were doing so they picked up guns
state were doing so they picked up guns to defend their struggle for hope they
to defend their struggle for hope they
to defend their struggle for hope they didn’t want to see it fade and each
didn’t want to see it fade and each
didn’t want to see it fade and each group then escalated with every other
group then escalated with every other
group then escalated with every other group trying to get more members and
group trying to get more members and
group trying to get more members and everyone I spoke to was jailed and most
everyone I spoke to was jailed and most
everyone I spoke to was jailed and most of them were tortured as well if they’d
of them were tortured as well if they’d
of them were tortured as well if they’d had a prominent role so in each case we
had a prominent role so in each case we
had a prominent role so in each case we can understand why people become
can understand why people become
can understand why people become involved in political violence we can
involved in political violence we can
involved in political violence we can almost empathize with them sometimes
almost empathize with them sometimes
almost empathize with them sometimes because they give you human reasons for
because they give you human reasons for
because they give you human reasons for why they became involved but it is
why they became involved but it is
why they became involved but it is difficult sometimes to have the moral
difficult sometimes to have the moral
difficult sometimes to have the moral courage to listen to those reasons and
courage to listen to those reasons and
courage to listen to those reasons and listen without without judging and kind
listen without without judging and kind
listen without without judging and kind of instinctively pushing those reasons
of instinctively pushing those reasons
of instinctively pushing those reasons away there is a very large elephant in
away there is a very large elephant in
away there is a very large elephant in the room at this point which is Isis and
the room at this point which is Isis and
the room at this point which is Isis and whether or not we can apply the same the
whether or not we can apply the same the
whether or not we can apply the same the same calls for understanding call for
same calls for understanding call for
same calls for understanding call for dialogue for a group like Isis who have
dialogue for a group like Isis who have
dialogue for a group like Isis who have committed incredible atrocities in
committed incredible atrocities in
committed incredible atrocities in recent years but I’m not able to answer
recent years but I’m not able to answer
recent years but I’m not able to answer that question for you I think it’s
that question for you I think it’s
that question for you I think it’s important to conclude this talk by
important to conclude this talk by
important to conclude this talk by saying I’m not allowed to stand on this
saying I’m not allowed to stand on this
saying I’m not allowed to stand on this stage and tell you that you should
stage and tell you that you should
stage and tell you that you should listen to people’s reasons for joining
listen to people’s reasons for joining
listen to people’s reasons for joining Isis I’m gonna loud to stand here and
Isis I’m gonna loud to stand here and
Isis I’m gonna loud to stand here and say that we have to empathize with
say that we have to empathize with
say that we have to empathize with people who might go and join them and
people who might go and join them and
people who might go and join them and that is a societal issue whenever
that is a societal issue whenever
that is a societal issue whenever society faces an armed conflict it’s too
society faces an armed conflict it’s too
society faces an armed conflict it’s too difficult to ask why that armed conflict
difficult to ask why that armed conflict
difficult to ask why that armed conflict is happening and to understand
is happening and to understand
is happening and to understand instead we like to push it away we like
instead we like to push it away we like
instead we like to push it away we like to look for for other reasons like
to look for for other reasons like
to look for for other reasons like they’re they’re bad or they evil or
they’re they’re bad or they evil or
they’re they’re bad or they evil or they’re crazy instead of listening but
they’re crazy instead of listening but
they’re crazy instead of listening but for as long as we make it on
for as long as we make it on
for as long as we make it on ethical or illegal to ask why people
ethical or illegal to ask why people
ethical or illegal to ask why people join an armed struggle we make it
join an armed struggle we make it
join an armed struggle we make it impossible to understand terrorism and
impossible to understand terrorism and
impossible to understand terrorism and if we don’t understand it then we’re
if we don’t understand it then we’re
if we don’t understand it then we’re forever condemned to repeat our mistakes
forever condemned to repeat our mistakes
forever condemned to repeat our mistakes and to create more of it thank you
and to create more of it thank you
and to create more of it thank you [Applause]
”
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