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Talking entrepreneurship and angel investing with Kevin Kruse


hello everyone and welcome to another

hello everyone and welcome to another google+ hangout i’m excited to have with

google+ hangout i’m excited to have with

google+ hangout i’m excited to have with me Kevin Cruz who is a serial

me Kevin Cruz who is a serial

me Kevin Cruz who is a serial entrepreneur he’s an author he’s built a

entrepreneur he’s an author he’s built a

entrepreneur he’s an author he’s built a number of different businesses he’s an

number of different businesses he’s an

number of different businesses he’s an angel investor and I’m going to ask him

angel investor and I’m going to ask him

angel investor and I’m going to ask him about how he got started his lessons and

about how he got started his lessons and

about how he got started his lessons and some advice for entrepreneurs and

some advice for entrepreneurs and

some advice for entrepreneurs and welcome to the show Kevin thanks having

welcome to the show Kevin thanks having

welcome to the show Kevin thanks having great to be here been following your

great to be here been following your

great to be here been following your stuff for years i’m honored to be on the

stuff for years i’m honored to be on the

stuff for years i’m honored to be on the show so for people who may not be

show so for people who may not be

show so for people who may not be familiar with you yet can you give

familiar with you yet can you give

familiar with you yet can you give people a little bit more of a background

people a little bit more of a background

people a little bit more of a background about who you are which all about yeah

about who you are which all about yeah

about who you are which all about yeah sure I am well I I live outside of

sure I am well I I live outside of

sure I am well I I live outside of Philadelphia in Bucks County

Philadelphia in Bucks County

Philadelphia in Bucks County Pennsylvania got three great kids and in

Pennsylvania got three great kids and in

Pennsylvania got three great kids and in the past had you know started a series

the past had you know started a series

the past had you know started a series of different tech companies primarily

of different tech companies primarily

of different tech companies primarily online learning and education companies

online learning and education companies

online learning and education companies some that did well others that that

some that did well others that that

some that did well others that that didn’t and since selling my last

didn’t and since selling my last

didn’t and since selling my last business I guess almost about six years

business I guess almost about six years

business I guess almost about six years ago now that’s really when I did a

ago now that’s really when I did a

ago now that’s really when I did a personal pivot and have spent a lot more

personal pivot and have spent a lot more

personal pivot and have spent a lot more time you know writing books doing talks

time you know writing books doing talks

time you know writing books doing talks doing board work nonprofit work and

doing board work nonprofit work and

doing board work nonprofit work and things like that great what Tom for

things like that great what Tom for

things like that great what Tom for entrepreneurs who are starting up so i

entrepreneurs who are starting up so i

entrepreneurs who are starting up so i started in tech too and I’m i gotchu you

started in tech too and I’m i gotchu you

started in tech too and I’m i gotchu you guys had a seller transition where I’m

guys had a seller transition where I’m

guys had a seller transition where I’m you know helping entrepreneurs out what

you know helping entrepreneurs out what

you know helping entrepreneurs out what what prompted that change what prompted

what prompted that change what prompted

what prompted that change what prompted that desire to you know so you sold and

that desire to you know so you sold and

that desire to you know so you sold and then instead of saying hey I’m going to

then instead of saying hey I’m going to

then instead of saying hey I’m going to go smoke another tech company I want to

go smoke another tech company I want to

go smoke another tech company I want to give back and start helping

give back and start helping

give back and start helping entrepreneurs what what led to that

entrepreneurs what what led to that

entrepreneurs what what led to that realization yeah and you know that’s a

realization yeah and you know that’s a

realization yeah and you know that’s a that’s a big question of them because I

that’s a big question of them because I

that’s a big question of them because I think entrepreneurs it’s almost like

think entrepreneurs it’s almost like

think entrepreneurs it’s almost like it’s almost like we have a genetic

it’s almost like we have a genetic

it’s almost like we have a genetic defect I have a friend who calls it a

defect I have a friend who calls it a

defect I have a friend who calls it a genetic defect where we just over and

genetic defect where we just over and

genetic defect where we just over and over again and uh you know to be candid

over again and uh you know to be candid

over again and uh you know to be candid it was a point in my life where I done

it was a point in my life where I done

it was a point in my life where I done so many and doing that entrepreneurial

so many and doing that entrepreneurial

so many and doing that entrepreneurial grind I think I was a little tired and

grind I think I was a little tired and

grind I think I was a little tired and burnt out I’ve got three great kids

burnt out I’ve got three great kids

burnt out I’ve got three great kids still all in school age and thought it’d

still all in school age and thought it’d

still all in school age and thought it’d be a great time to you know be dad first

be a great time to you know be dad first

be a great time to you know be dad first and start to give back a little bit and

and start to give back a little bit and

and start to give back a little bit and just you know focus on a quality of life

just you know focus on a quality of life

just you know focus on a quality of life that was

that was

that was a little different than the than the

a little different than the than the

a little different than the than the entrepreneurial grind but but I gotta

entrepreneurial grind but but I gotta

entrepreneurial grind but but I gotta say I mean it’s been over half a decade

say I mean it’s been over half a decade

say I mean it’s been over half a decade of leaving that game and that it doesn’t

of leaving that game and that it doesn’t

of leaving that game and that it doesn’t go away you know so I’ve been able to

go away you know so I’ve been able to

go away you know so I’ve been able to scratch it a little bit by advising

scratch it a little bit by advising

scratch it a little bit by advising entrepreneurs encouraging them doing

entrepreneurs encouraging them doing

entrepreneurs encouraging them doing some investments but it’s not the same

some investments but it’s not the same

some investments but it’s not the same as a betting on yourself and going all

as a betting on yourself and going all

as a betting on yourself and going all in so I don’t know another year or two

in so I don’t know another year or two

in so I don’t know another year or two I’m comin yeah baby he’s got it cool uh

I’m comin yeah baby he’s got it cool uh

I’m comin yeah baby he’s got it cool uh what what what advice do you commonly

what what what advice do you commonly

what what what advice do you commonly give so I mean you’re investing in

give so I mean you’re investing in

give so I mean you’re investing in startups you’re investing in companies

startups you’re investing in companies

startups you’re investing in companies your your you know giving them advice on

your your you know giving them advice on

your your you know giving them advice on how to grow what are some of the common

how to grow what are some of the common

how to grow what are some of the common issues that you believe are important to

issues that you believe are important to

issues that you believe are important to help entrepreneurs get past those early

help entrepreneurs get past those early

help entrepreneurs get past those early stumbling blocks yeah i mean i think

stumbling blocks yeah i mean i think

stumbling blocks yeah i mean i think that when i get involved it is early so

that when i get involved it is early so

that when i get involved it is early so I think there’s different lessons and

I think there’s different lessons and

I think there’s different lessons and different things to to know at different

different things to to know at different

different things to to know at different stages um you know I’m uh working as an

stages um you know I’m uh working as an

stages um you know I’m uh working as an executive coach a startup coach to a

executive coach a startup coach to a

executive coach a startup coach to a non-profit education company in Pakistan

non-profit education company in Pakistan

non-profit education company in Pakistan right now for example is an American guy

right now for example is an American guy

right now for example is an American guy who’s in Pakistan and has started this

who’s in Pakistan and has started this

who’s in Pakistan and has started this venture and it’s a great case of

venture and it’s a great case of

venture and it’s a great case of tremendous you know intelligence ideas

tremendous you know intelligence ideas

tremendous you know intelligence ideas enthusiasm put in his own you know dent

enthusiasm put in his own you know dent

enthusiasm put in his own you know dent in the universe and where I can add

in the universe and where I can add

in the universe and where I can add value is and where you know some of his

value is and where you know some of his

value is and where you know some of his questions are is everything from the

questions are is everything from the

questions are is everything from the business standpoint of you know focusing

business standpoint of you know focusing

business standpoint of you know focusing on on the things like culture mission

on on the things like culture mission

on on the things like culture mission vision values and things that sometimes

vision values and things that sometimes

vision values and things that sometimes feel like boy I’d rather debug this code

feel like boy I’d rather debug this code

feel like boy I’d rather debug this code or go call that customer but ultimately

or go call that customer but ultimately

or go call that customer but ultimately are very important in the long run and

are very important in the long run and

are very important in the long run and at the same time you know I encourage

at the same time you know I encourage

at the same time you know I encourage entrepreneurs to really speak to someone

entrepreneurs to really speak to someone

entrepreneurs to really speak to someone just so they can have some balance and

just so they can have some balance and

just so they can have some balance and focus in their own life I mean it’s

focus in their own life I mean it’s

focus in their own life I mean it’s something I missed I mean it’s it’s do

something I missed I mean it’s it’s do

something I missed I mean it’s it’s do what I say not what I do because I was

what I say not what I do because I was

what I say not what I do because I was just focused on the business and doing

just focused on the business and doing

just focused on the business and doing that classic seven-day workweek around

that classic seven-day workweek around

that classic seven-day workweek around the clock runnin and gunnin and it can

the clock runnin and gunnin and it can

the clock runnin and gunnin and it can take a toll on you you know mentally

take a toll on you you know mentally

take a toll on you you know mentally physically and now with hindsight I

physically and now with hindsight I

physically and now with hindsight I realize you’re

realize you’re

realize you’re not in the best place to be thinking

not in the best place to be thinking

not in the best place to be thinking creatively and with innovation and

creatively and with innovation and

creatively and with innovation and you’re not gonna be able to coach those

you’re not gonna be able to coach those

you’re not gonna be able to coach those around you when you yourself are burnt

around you when you yourself are burnt

around you when you yourself are burnt out and depleted so you know when i’m

out and depleted so you know when i’m

out and depleted so you know when i’m working with entrepreneurs now young

working with entrepreneurs now young

working with entrepreneurs now young younger newer entrepreneurs you know

younger newer entrepreneurs you know

younger newer entrepreneurs you know half the stuff is about the business but

half the stuff is about the business but

half the stuff is about the business but the other half is really about just life

the other half is really about just life

the other half is really about just life and ultimately that all there is it’s

and ultimately that all there is it’s

and ultimately that all there is it’s it’s all the same thing right Saul as

it’s all the same thing right Saul as

it’s all the same thing right Saul as goes the leader goes the rest of the

goes the leader goes the rest of the

goes the leader goes the rest of the company and you really need to be

company and you really need to be

company and you really need to be holistic about that as well how are you

holistic about that as well how are you

holistic about that as well how are you I’m curious so what you know you got

I’m curious so what you know you got

I’m curious so what you know you got that itch you want to scratch it in the

that itch you want to scratch it in the

that itch you want to scratch it in the year we’ll see how long it lasts until

year we’ll see how long it lasts until

year we’ll see how long it lasts until you could die back in how are you going

you could die back in how are you going

you could die back in how are you going to manage that now you have a wife you

to manage that now you have a wife you

to manage that now you have a wife you have kids you know that they’re growing

have kids you know that they’re growing

have kids you know that they’re growing up how are you going to manage that

up how are you going to manage that

up how are you going to manage that grind in your next startup so that it

grind in your next startup so that it

grind in your next startup so that it doesn’t take such a huge toll on you

doesn’t take such a huge toll on you

doesn’t take such a huge toll on you personally well it’s even worse than

personally well it’s even worse than

personally well it’s even worse than ever because I have the kids but I don’t

ever because I have the kids but I don’t

ever because I have the kids but I don’t have the wife I’m a single dad so okay

have the wife I’m a single dad so okay

have the wife I’m a single dad so okay there you go so any given day I’m you

there you go so any given day I’m you

there you go so any given day I’m you know making peanut butter jelly

know making peanut butter jelly

know making peanut butter jelly sandwiches or taking someone to you know

sandwiches or taking someone to you know

sandwiches or taking someone to you know check out a strep throat or a school

check out a strep throat or a school

check out a strep throat or a school thing or whatever and I think that’s

thing or whatever and I think that’s

thing or whatever and I think that’s part of what’s kept me on the sidelines

part of what’s kept me on the sidelines

part of what’s kept me on the sidelines for a while but I also think you know

for a while but I also think you know

for a while but I also think you know with some some experience comes some

with some some experience comes some

with some some experience comes some wisdom and realizing that you know you

wisdom and realizing that you know you

wisdom and realizing that you know you you don’t have to do it all yourself I

you don’t have to do it all yourself I

you don’t have to do it all yourself I mean that was my big it was like a light

mean that was my big it was like a light

mean that was my big it was like a light switch went off I mean my first company

switch went off I mean my first company

switch went off I mean my first company I was 21 years old and and thought I was

I was 21 years old and and thought I was

I was 21 years old and and thought I was you know doing that startup grind but I

you know doing that startup grind but I

you know doing that startup grind but I thought I had all the answers I was

thought I had all the answers I was

thought I had all the answers I was selfish I didn’t want to share equity I

selfish I didn’t want to share equity I

selfish I didn’t want to share equity I didn’t want to pay people well and I was

didn’t want to pay people well and I was

didn’t want to pay people well and I was out of business and in debt in one year

out of business and in debt in one year

out of business and in debt in one year and the second business I had a partner

and the second business I had a partner

and the second business I had a partner that’s you know in a step in the right

that’s you know in a step in the right

that’s you know in a step in the right direction and yet didn’t know how to

direction and yet didn’t know how to

direction and yet didn’t know how to fight constructively didn’t know how to

fight constructively didn’t know how to

fight constructively didn’t know how to communicate constructively didn’t know

communicate constructively didn’t know

communicate constructively didn’t know how to you didn’t think I needed a board

how to you didn’t think I needed a board

how to you didn’t think I needed a board of advisors of board of directors

of advisors of board of directors

of advisors of board of directors mentors even um and that lasted about a

mentors even um and that lasted about a

mentors even um and that lasted about a year this time not in debt but but

year this time not in debt but but

year this time not in debt but but decided as isn’t working out and it was

decided as isn’t working out and it was

decided as isn’t working out and it was really the third fourth and then

really the third fourth and then

really the third fourth and then eventually even fifth businesses where I

eventually even fifth businesses where I

eventually even fifth businesses where I just realized okay you know find the

just realized okay you know find the

just realized okay you know find the best talent I can in a given area let’s

best talent I can in a given area let’s

best talent I can in a given area let’s say it’s marketing let’s let me find the

say it’s marketing let’s let me find the

say it’s marketing let’s let me find the best marketer but don’t pretend I have

best marketer but don’t pretend I have

best marketer but don’t pretend I have all the answers and even if I do have

all the answers and even if I do have

all the answers and even if I do have some of the right answers because of my

some of the right answers because of my

some of the right answers because of my experience or insights or whatever

experience or insights or whatever

experience or insights or whatever realize that every time I change

realize that every time I change

realize that every time I change something or step on that territory I’m

something or step on that territory I’m

something or step on that territory I’m disengaging that person it becomes my

disengaging that person it becomes my

disengaging that person it becomes my company not their company my project not

company not their company my project not

company not their company my project not their project and so when you hire great

their project and so when you hire great

their project and so when you hire great people if you then just don’t focus on

people if you then just don’t focus on

people if you then just don’t focus on their domain area that focus on creating

their domain area that focus on creating

their domain area that focus on creating a great culture of engagement they’re

a great culture of engagement they’re

a great culture of engagement they’re going to give you you know all the hours

going to give you you know all the hours

going to give you you know all the hours you would ever want that we they’re

you would ever want that we they’re

you would ever want that we they’re going to give you the best talent

going to give you the best talent

going to give you the best talent they’re going to own their mistakes and

they’re going to own their mistakes and

they’re going to own their mistakes and learn from them and I realized with that

learn from them and I realized with that

learn from them and I realized with that third business that went well I sold it

third business that went well I sold it

third business that went well I sold it after about five years thought ah you

after about five years thought ah you

after about five years thought ah you know I need to really focus more on this

know I need to really focus more on this

know I need to really focus more on this talent in culture piece and the next

talent in culture piece and the next

talent in culture piece and the next business I spent more time on that so

business I spent more time on that so

business I spent more time on that so that company didn’t even better the last

that company didn’t even better the last

that company didn’t even better the last one I did one thing I said okay i’m the

one I did one thing I said okay i’m the

one I did one thing I said okay i’m the founder CEO let me hire great people and

founder CEO let me hire great people and

founder CEO let me hire great people and make sure the culture supports them I

make sure the culture supports them I

make sure the culture supports them I mean I didn’t get involved you know

mean I didn’t get involved you know

mean I didn’t get involved you know directly in sales marketing products I

directly in sales marketing products I

directly in sales marketing products I mean I had the vision I set it up and

mean I had the vision I set it up and

mean I had the vision I set it up and then it was all about assembly two great

then it was all about assembly two great

then it was all about assembly two great team and that that business it was Inc

team and that that business it was Inc

team and that that business it was Inc 500 business one best place to work

500 business one best place to work

500 business one best place to work Awards the less I did myself in the

Awards the less I did myself in the

Awards the less I did myself in the business the better it did so this is a

business the better it did so this is a

business the better it did so this is a long way of saying that I hope that if

long way of saying that I hope that if

long way of saying that I hope that if indeed I would ever jump back in the

indeed I would ever jump back in the

indeed I would ever jump back in the game in a big way I would have that

game in a big way I would have that

game in a big way I would have that wisdom and realize you know I I’m going

wisdom and realize you know I I’m going

wisdom and realize you know I I’m going to be pushing 50 I’ve got kids I’m not

to be pushing 50 I’ve got kids I’m not

to be pushing 50 I’ve got kids I’m not working 80 hours a week I’m not going to

working 80 hours a week I’m not going to

working 80 hours a week I’m not going to go out on every single sales call I’m

go out on every single sales call I’m

go out on every single sales call I’m not going to debug that code myself you

not going to debug that code myself you

not going to debug that code myself you know it’s going to be more about

know it’s going to be more about

know it’s going to be more about hopefully having a clever idea and some

hopefully having a clever idea and some

hopefully having a clever idea and some some mission vision and values but it’s

some mission vision and values but it’s

some mission vision and values but it’s about attracting partners not being so

about attracting partners not being so

about attracting partners not being so selfish attracting a great board of

selfish attracting a great board of

selfish attracting a great board of advisors a great board of directors um

advisors a great board of directors um

advisors a great board of directors um be willing to who raise some money I

be willing to who raise some money I

be willing to who raise some money I always bootstraps I was too selfish to

always bootstraps I was too selfish to

always bootstraps I was too selfish to to raise money you raise money not for

to raise money you raise money not for

to raise money you raise money not for the money you raise money because now

the money you raise money because now

the money you raise money because now they have access to their network and

they have access to their network and

they have access to their network and whether that’s for beta customers for

whether that’s for beta customers for

whether that’s for beta customers for chief

chief

chief officers whatever you share out that

officers whatever you share out that

officers whatever you share out that equity to get that expertise and evident

equity to get that expertise and evident

equity to get that expertise and evident could all be smoke I mean I could be

could all be smoke I mean I could be

could all be smoke I mean I could be wrong but I think I just be a lot

wrong but I think I just be a lot

wrong but I think I just be a lot smarter about doing it and hopefully a

smarter about doing it and hopefully a

smarter about doing it and hopefully a lot saner you have interviewed some

lot saner you have interviewed some

lot saner you have interviewed some amazing people and you probably see what

amazing people and you probably see what

amazing people and you probably see what I see is that you know the higher up the

I see is that you know the higher up the

I see is that you know the higher up the more successful people are it’s almost

more successful people are it’s almost

more successful people are it’s almost like the calmer they are the less

like the calmer they are the less

like the calmer they are the less frantic they are you know I I anyone who

frantic they are you know I I anyone who

frantic they are you know I I anyone who i knows had any kind of you know

i knows had any kind of you know

i knows had any kind of you know material success in life or professional

material success in life or professional

material success in life or professional success in life they’re not running

success in life they’re not running

success in life they’re not running around you know with a to-do list and

around you know with a to-do list and

around you know with a to-do list and ranking A’s and B’s and let me fit this

ranking A’s and B’s and let me fit this

ranking A’s and B’s and let me fit this in that’s not how they run their life so

in that’s not how they run their life so

in that’s not how they run their life so I had that all wrong when I was in my

I had that all wrong when I was in my

I had that all wrong when I was in my 20s and I think I’m going to be a little

20s and I think I’m going to be a little

20s and I think I’m going to be a little bit wiser about that that balance you

bit wiser about that that balance you

bit wiser about that that balance you know moving forward so if you were to go

know moving forward so if you were to go

know moving forward so if you were to go back and I mean even now I mean you’re

back and I mean even now I mean you’re

back and I mean even now I mean you’re talking to the 21 year old kevin cruises

talking to the 21 year old kevin cruises

talking to the 21 year old kevin cruises who are watching this show who you know

who are watching this show who you know

who are watching this show who you know may not have access to capital they

may not have access to capital they

may not have access to capital they haven’t built and sold businesses they

haven’t built and sold businesses they

haven’t built and sold businesses they don’t have a huge Network ah and they

don’t have a huge Network ah and they

don’t have a huge Network ah and they want to avoid the mistakes that you made

want to avoid the mistakes that you made

want to avoid the mistakes that you made of trying to do everything yourself but

of trying to do everything yourself but

of trying to do everything yourself but they’re saying hey I don’t have the

they’re saying hey I don’t have the

they’re saying hey I don’t have the money to go out and bring these guys on

money to go out and bring these guys on

money to go out and bring these guys on and I don’t have a network what what do

and I don’t have a network what what do

and I don’t have a network what what do you tell that 21 year old next Kevin

you tell that 21 year old next Kevin

you tell that 21 year old next Kevin Cruz yeah I think that um here’s I mean

Cruz yeah I think that um here’s I mean

Cruz yeah I think that um here’s I mean the fur the most important message which

the fur the most important message which

the fur the most important message which is great if they’re already in the games

is great if they’re already in the games

is great if they’re already in the games get in the game I mean it’s never been

get in the game I mean it’s never been

get in the game I mean it’s never been easier to be an entrepreneur to scale I

easier to be an entrepreneur to scale I

easier to be an entrepreneur to scale I mean you think about so many of these

mean you think about so many of these

mean you think about so many of these startups that are successful these days

startups that are successful these days

startups that are successful these days with four or five six people that are

with four or five six people that are

with four or five six people that are serving 400 million customers or in the

serving 400 million customers or in the

serving 400 million customers or in the case of an Instagram or whatsapp you

case of an Instagram or whatsapp you

case of an Instagram or whatsapp you know they’ve got 50 employees and

know they’ve got 50 employees and

know they’ve got 50 employees and they’re servicing 500 million people and

they’re servicing 500 million people and

they’re servicing 500 million people and selling for a billion dollars I mean

selling for a billion dollars I mean

selling for a billion dollars I mean it’s never been easier yeah back in my

it’s never been easier yeah back in my

it’s never been easier yeah back in my back in my day you know if I wanted a

back in my day you know if I wanted a

back in my day you know if I wanted a SAS software solution I was racking and

SAS software solution I was racking and

SAS software solution I was racking and stacking servers in the closet and I

stacking servers in the closet and I

stacking servers in the closet and I used to have to do that and it’s all

used to have to do that and it’s all

used to have to do that and it’s all this money you know up front in these

this money you know up front in these

this money you know up front in these servers not knowing if you’re ever going

servers not knowing if you’re ever going

servers not knowing if you’re ever going to really have traffic for them now you

to really have traffic for them now you

to really have traffic for them now you know you read

know you read

know you read for pennies you know from from ATMs on

for pennies you know from from ATMs on

for pennies you know from from ATMs on AWS or or somewhere else with fiber with

AWS or or somewhere else with fiber with

AWS or or somewhere else with fiber with with freelance calm with outsource you

with freelance calm with outsource you

with freelance calm with outsource you know you can get a lot with not a little

know you can get a lot with not a little

know you can get a lot with not a little money but the most important thing is if

money but the most important thing is if

money but the most important thing is if you’ve got a great idea and are

you’ve got a great idea and are

you’ve got a great idea and are passionate about it I mean people are

passionate about it I mean people are

passionate about it I mean people are ignited by your passion or your

ignited by your passion or your

ignited by your passion or your enthusiasm it’s contagious so even if

enthusiasm it’s contagious so even if

enthusiasm it’s contagious so even if you just have that good idea in that

you just have that good idea in that

you just have that good idea in that passion you’ll find people to work with

passion you’ll find people to work with

passion you’ll find people to work with if you want to and you’ll find money if

if you want to and you’ll find money if

if you want to and you’ll find money if you want to um I am astonished I i I’ve

you want to um I am astonished I i I’ve

you want to um I am astonished I i I’ve kind of um I’ve kind of young I’m not as

kind of um I’ve kind of young I’m not as

kind of um I’ve kind of young I’m not as positive about angel investing as I used

positive about angel investing as I used

positive about angel investing as I used to like I don’t as an angel I don’t it I

to like I don’t as an angel I don’t it I

to like I don’t as an angel I don’t it I don’t think it’s all that I thought it

don’t think it’s all that I thought it

don’t think it’s all that I thought it used to be but I’m amazed when I go into

used to be but I’m amazed when I go into

used to be but I’m amazed when I go into these eight angel group meetings for for

these eight angel group meetings for for

these eight angel group meetings for for rich men and women that are in these

rich men and women that are in these

rich men and women that are in these meetings it ain’t hard to get their

meetings it ain’t hard to get their

meetings it ain’t hard to get their money i mean it’s it’s like betting for

money i mean it’s it’s like betting for

money i mean it’s it’s like betting for them there’s not a whole lot of due

them there’s not a whole lot of due

them there’s not a whole lot of due diligence involved you know and these

diligence involved you know and these

diligence involved you know and these days even venture capitalists i mean

days even venture capitalists i mean

days even venture capitalists i mean they will fund a great ID in a napkin if

they will fund a great ID in a napkin if

they will fund a great ID in a napkin if you’re you know with with the right

you’re you know with with the right

you’re you know with with the right people so a 21 year old kevin cruise or

people so a 21 year old kevin cruise or

people so a 21 year old kevin cruise or Evan or anyone that’s out there first of

Evan or anyone that’s out there first of

Evan or anyone that’s out there first of all go for it it’s never been a better

all go for it it’s never been a better

all go for it it’s never been a better time to be an entrepreneur and don’t

time to be an entrepreneur and don’t

time to be an entrepreneur and don’t worry about not having that money i mean

worry about not having that money i mean

worry about not having that money i mean yeah work hard hustle as much as you can

yeah work hard hustle as much as you can

yeah work hard hustle as much as you can but then you know attract go find a head

but then you know attract go find a head

but then you know attract go find a head of sales and give them ten percent of

of sales and give them ten percent of

of sales and give them ten percent of the company and options go find a chief

the company and options go find a chief

the company and options go find a chief technology officer give them ten percent

technology officer give them ten percent

technology officer give them ten percent of the company options go talk to angel

of the company options go talk to angel

of the company options go talk to angel investors and be willing to do a

investors and be willing to do a

investors and be willing to do a convertible note or something yes you’re

convertible note or something yes you’re

convertible note or something yes you’re giving away some of your company but you

giving away some of your company but you

giving away some of your company but you might get some resources in return it’s

might get some resources in return it’s

might get some resources in return it’s easier than ever before you have an

easier than ever before you have an

easier than ever before you have an interesting philosophy that not a lot of

interesting philosophy that not a lot of

interesting philosophy that not a lot of entrepreneurs will take in that you you

entrepreneurs will take in that you you

entrepreneurs will take in that you you really want to share the share the

really want to share the share the

really want to share the share the wealth and give up equity to get money

wealth and give up equity to get money

wealth and give up equity to get money and to get people on board how do you

and to get people on board how do you

and to get people on board how do you how do you prevent uh how do you prevent

how do you prevent uh how do you prevent

how do you prevent uh how do you prevent giving it to the wrong person you know

giving it to the wrong person you know

giving it to the wrong person you know how do you make sure that that CTO

how do you make sure that that CTO

how do you make sure that that CTO you’re giving it to

you’re giving it to

you’re giving it to young giving them ten percent how do I

young giving them ten percent how do I

young giving them ten percent how do I know you know I’m that 21 year old kevin

know you know I’m that 21 year old kevin

know you know I’m that 21 year old kevin cruise how do I know that the guy I’m

cruise how do I know that the guy I’m

cruise how do I know that the guy I’m giving that money to or that percentage

giving that money to or that percentage

giving that money to or that percentage in is is going to be the right person

in is is going to be the right person

in is is going to be the right person help me build this thing long-term that

help me build this thing long-term that

help me build this thing long-term that that’s a powerful question because even

that’s a powerful question because even

that’s a powerful question because even the people who specialize in you know

the people who specialize in you know

the people who specialize in you know how to select great talent they’ll admit

how to select great talent they’ll admit

how to select great talent they’ll admit that their success rate is fifty-fifty I

that their success rate is fifty-fifty I

that their success rate is fifty-fifty I mean there’s it’s really hard to get

mean there’s it’s really hard to get

mean there’s it’s really hard to get great people so I mean ideally you’re

great people so I mean ideally you’re

great people so I mean ideally you’re working with people that you’re bringing

working with people that you’re bringing

working with people that you’re bringing in people as partners who you’ve worked

in people as partners who you’ve worked

in people as partners who you’ve worked with in some capacity mess and they’re

with in some capacity mess and they’re

with in some capacity mess and they’re already a known entity if you can’t do

already a known entity if you can’t do

already a known entity if you can’t do that it’s great if you can bring people

that it’s great if you can bring people

that it’s great if you can bring people in on a trial basis or a project basis

in on a trial basis or a project basis

in on a trial basis or a project basis um if you can’t do that then of course

um if you can’t do that then of course

um if you can’t do that then of course what you do is you set up the contracts

what you do is you set up the contracts

what you do is you set up the contracts so that it’s it’s it’s all earned so

so that it’s it’s it’s all earned so

so that it’s it’s it’s all earned so let’s say you know Evans the CTO for me

let’s say you know Evans the CTO for me

let’s say you know Evans the CTO for me definitely deserves ten percent of the

definitely deserves ten percent of the

definitely deserves ten percent of the company but I’m not going to give it to

company but I’m not going to give it to

company but I’m not going to give it to you on day 1 i’m going to say okay it’s

you on day 1 i’m going to say okay it’s

you on day 1 i’m going to say okay it’s either a third each year for three years

either a third each year for three years

either a third each year for three years so if this doesn’t work out after a year

so if this doesn’t work out after a year

so if this doesn’t work out after a year and we part ways I’ve kind of limited my

and we part ways I’ve kind of limited my

and we part ways I’ve kind of limited my downside or even to take more risk out

downside or even to take more risk out

downside or even to take more risk out of it you make some you make some

of it you make some you make some

of it you make some you make some deliverables you know some mentions and

deliverables you know some mentions and

deliverables you know some mentions and whether that’s around revenue or

whether that’s around revenue or

whether that’s around revenue or installs or contingent on other raises

installs or contingent on other raises

installs or contingent on other raises or whatever that might be you can have

or whatever that might be you can have

or whatever that might be you can have clauses in there that would trigger an

clauses in there that would trigger an

clauses in there that would trigger an accelerated earnings for that talented

accelerated earnings for that talented

accelerated earnings for that talented person or you could claw some of that

person or you could claw some of that

person or you could claw some of that back it those conversations always feel

back it those conversations always feel

back it those conversations always feel hard because you want to just assume

hard because you want to just assume

hard because you want to just assume that of course it’s going to work out

that of course it’s going to work out

that of course it’s going to work out you know it’s kind of like prenuptial

you know it’s kind of like prenuptial

you know it’s kind of like prenuptial agreements in marriages right you know

agreements in marriages right you know

agreements in marriages right you know you don’t really want to tell the person

you don’t really want to tell the person

you don’t really want to tell the person who you love and are gonna of course in

who you love and are gonna of course in

who you love and are gonna of course in the rest of your life with oh but what

the rest of your life with oh but what

the rest of your life with oh but what if it doesn’t work out I mean it’s a

if it doesn’t work out I mean it’s a

if it doesn’t work out I mean it’s a horrible conversation to have more and

horrible conversation to have more and

horrible conversation to have more and more people are having these kinds of

more people are having these kinds of

more people are having these kinds of conversations so I think it’s the same

conversations so I think it’s the same

conversations so I think it’s the same thing is do everything you can to make

thing is do everything you can to make

thing is do everything you can to make sure that especially at a partner level

sure that especially at a partner level

sure that especially at a partner level that you found the right person but then

that you found the right person but then

that you found the right person but then as much as possible make that ownership

as much as possible make that ownership

as much as possible make that ownership contingent on success

contingent on success

contingent on success got it and as an angel investor what are

got it and as an angel investor what are

got it and as an angel investor what are some of the things that you would look

some of the things that you would look

some of the things that you would look for in a pitch that’s coming to you yeah

for in a pitch that’s coming to you yeah

for in a pitch that’s coming to you yeah you know I I’ve seen a lot of them I’ve

you know I I’ve seen a lot of them I’ve

you know I I’ve seen a lot of them I’ve changed a little bit on that I mean what

changed a little bit on that I mean what

changed a little bit on that I mean what always looks great is when when the

always looks great is when when the

always looks great is when when the entrepreneur has has done it before so

entrepreneur has has done it before so

entrepreneur has has done it before so you know it’s someone who had a key

you know it’s someone who had a key

you know it’s someone who had a key position at a certain company so you

position at a certain company so you

position at a certain company so you know they’ve got some experience you

know they’ve got some experience you

know they’ve got some experience you know they’ve got some some some

know they’ve got some some some

know they’ve got some some some connections and things and they’re going

connections and things and they’re going

connections and things and they’re going to do it again on their own in some way

to do it again on their own in some way

to do it again on their own in some way this is sort of a repeat or even if it’s

this is sort of a repeat or even if it’s

this is sort of a repeat or even if it’s a different area but they specially

a different area but they specially

a different area but they specially started and sold a previous business at

started and sold a previous business at

started and sold a previous business at least you know they know how to raise

least you know they know how to raise

least you know they know how to raise money they know how to hire people they

money they know how to hire people they

money they know how to hire people they know how to talk to customers again you

know how to talk to customers again you

know how to talk to customers again you know anything it’s a bettin bet not a

know anything it’s a bettin bet not a

know anything it’s a bettin bet not a jockey that’s once in previous races is

jockey that’s once in previous races is

jockey that’s once in previous races is is the easiest way that’s hard that

is the easiest way that’s hard that

is the easiest way that’s hard that doesn’t happen that often though so when

doesn’t happen that often though so when

doesn’t happen that often though so when I have invested I mean I certainly would

I have invested I mean I certainly would

I have invested I mean I certainly would like to believe in the idea and I end I

like to believe in the idea and I end I

like to believe in the idea and I end I need to hear that passion from the

need to hear that passion from the

need to hear that passion from the person I need to know that I mean

person I need to know that I mean

person I need to know that I mean they’ve got a vision for this future

they’ve got a vision for this future

they’ve got a vision for this future that is is going to happen and lastly

that is is going to happen and lastly

that is is going to happen and lastly though I don’t want to get involved

though I don’t want to get involved

though I don’t want to get involved unless I can add value um I can’t

unless I can add value um I can’t

unless I can add value um I can’t remember who said it originally but they

remember who said it originally but they

remember who said it originally but they say you know great opportunities are

say you know great opportunities are

say you know great opportunities are like buses they just come every hour and

like buses they just come every hour and

like buses they just come every hour and it’s true i mean you can you can go on

it’s true i mean you can you can go on

it’s true i mean you can you can go on to you know angel list or an any angel

to you know angel list or an any angel

to you know angel list or an any angel meeting or whatever there’s hundreds or

meeting or whatever there’s hundreds or

meeting or whatever there’s hundreds or thousands of deals i get i get

thousands of deals i get i get

thousands of deals i get i get unsolicited pitches through linkedin

unsolicited pitches through linkedin

unsolicited pitches through linkedin three four times a day from people great

three four times a day from people great

three four times a day from people great ideas but um you know if it’s a great

ideas but um you know if it’s a great

ideas but um you know if it’s a great idea someone I don’t know and not an

idea someone I don’t know and not an

idea someone I don’t know and not an area I can contribute to yeah another

area I can contribute to yeah another

area I can contribute to yeah another bus is going to come around in an hour

bus is going to come around in an hour

bus is going to come around in an hour I’m not too interested and there’s a lot

I’m not too interested and there’s a lot

I’m not too interested and there’s a lot of ways to lose money in the startup

of ways to lose money in the startup

of ways to lose money in the startup game and as an angel if someone came to

game and as an angel if someone came to

game and as an angel if someone came to me though and said hey Kevin you know we

me though and said hey Kevin you know we

me though and said hey Kevin you know we sought you out as an angel not just

sought you out as an angel not just

sought you out as an angel not just because you can write a check but we

because you can write a check but we

because you can write a check but we know you had this success building and

know you had this success building and

know you had this success building and selling elearning companies especially

selling elearning companies especially

selling elearning companies especially in the life sciences space well we’ve

in the life sciences space well we’ve

in the life sciences space well we’ve got this new I

got this new I

got this new I for a mobile learning platform we’ve

for a mobile learning platform we’ve

for a mobile learning platform we’ve already got this pharmaceutical company

already got this pharmaceutical company

already got this pharmaceutical company on board as a beta and we know with your

on board as a beta and we know with your

on board as a beta and we know with your connections your experience in the space

connections your experience in the space

connections your experience in the space you can add value your smart money not

you can add value your smart money not

you can add value your smart money not dumb money that’s something that’s very

dumb money that’s something that’s very

dumb money that’s something that’s very interesting to me um and then Evan I

interesting to me um and then Evan I

interesting to me um and then Evan I know you would know this but but just to

know you would know this but but just to

know you would know this but but just to also share that this at this point I say

also share that this at this point I say

also share that this at this point I say no to a lot of deals just based on

no to a lot of deals just based on

no to a lot of deals just based on valuation valuations are through the

valuation valuations are through the

valuation valuations are through the roof right now I mean it’s crazy it’s

roof right now I mean it’s crazy it’s

roof right now I mean it’s crazy it’s really crazy so when someone comes to me

really crazy so when someone comes to me

really crazy so when someone comes to me with an idea on a napkin basically and

with an idea on a napkin basically and

with an idea on a napkin basically and and and they do and they say so we’re

and and they do and they say so we’re

and and they do and they say so we’re raising a million dollars and the

raising a million dollars and the

raising a million dollars and the valuation of the company is 10 million

valuation of the company is 10 million

valuation of the company is 10 million dollars so you’re going to get you know

dollars so you’re going to get you know

dollars so you’re going to get you know ten percent if you write the million

ten percent if you write the million

ten percent if you write the million well you start doing that it’s like

well you start doing that it’s like

well you start doing that it’s like first of all if I’m only writing a

first of all if I’m only writing a

first of all if I’m only writing a hundred thousand i’m not getting temps

hundred thousand i’m not getting temps

hundred thousand i’m not getting temps on getting one percent and you see how

on getting one percent and you see how

on getting one percent and you see how much influence you’re really going to

much influence you’re really going to

much influence you’re really going to have in that company is quite small as

have in that company is quite small as

have in that company is quite small as an angel um but but there’s so much risk

an angel um but but there’s so much risk

an angel um but but there’s so much risk even in well-run startups I mean it’s

even in well-run startups I mean it’s

even in well-run startups I mean it’s just it’s really hard and for companies

just it’s really hard and for companies

just it’s really hard and for companies with no revenues at all to be asking for

with no revenues at all to be asking for

with no revenues at all to be asking for 10 million dollar valuation and they do

10 million dollar valuation and they do

10 million dollar valuation and they do all the time I mean that’s good luck and

all the time I mean that’s good luck and

all the time I mean that’s good luck and they probably will find money from other

they probably will find money from other

they probably will find money from other people but ain’t gonna be my money so

people but ain’t gonna be my money so

people but ain’t gonna be my money so how do you value a start-up you know

how do you value a start-up you know

how do you value a start-up you know it’s a lot easier when you have revenue

it’s a lot easier when you have revenue

it’s a lot easier when you have revenue and customers and you you’ve got that

and customers and you you’ve got that

and customers and you you’ve got that first you know those first deals and you

first you know those first deals and you

first you know those first deals and you can you can play and say hey we’re going

can you can play and say hey we’re going

can you can play and say hey we’re going to keep growing like this but somebody

to keep growing like this but somebody

to keep growing like this but somebody comes to you with an idea a napkin and

comes to you with an idea a napkin and

comes to you with an idea a napkin and say hey I think I can make tons of money

say hey I think I can make tons of money

say hey I think I can make tons of money but i haven’t sold anything yet what do

but i haven’t sold anything yet what do

but i haven’t sold anything yet what do you say do you say still try to raise

you say do you say still try to raise

you say do you say still try to raise money to say hold off until you get some

money to say hold off until you get some

money to say hold off until you get some customers how do you evaluate that

customers how do you evaluate that

customers how do you evaluate that business well I mean the this the second

business well I mean the this the second

business well I mean the this the second question about do they hold off or not

question about do they hold off or not

question about do they hold off or not you know I’d say no I mean I think right

you know I’d say no I mean I think right

you know I’d say no I mean I think right now if valuations are high people are

now if valuations are high people are

now if valuations are high people are getting it and so I would actually say

getting it and so I would actually say

getting it and so I would actually say if you at all think you might want to

if you at all think you might want to

if you at all think you might want to raise money go out and raise it now

raise money go out and raise it now

raise money go out and raise it now because you’re going to get a much

because you’re going to get a much

because you’re going to get a much higher valuation just because there’s so

higher valuation just because there’s so

higher valuation just because there’s so much venture capital money angel money

much venture capital money angel money

much venture capital money angel money and all these new

and all these new

and all these new millionaires in Silicon Valley they’re

millionaires in Silicon Valley they’re

millionaires in Silicon Valley they’re all bettin just like you know at a

all bettin just like you know at a

all bettin just like you know at a casino they’re betting on things now’s a

casino they’re betting on things now’s a

casino they’re betting on things now’s a great time to raise money at a high

great time to raise money at a high

great time to raise money at a high valuation but how do you value a company

valuation but how do you value a company

valuation but how do you value a company that’s tricky and you’re right um it’s

that’s tricky and you’re right um it’s

that’s tricky and you’re right um it’s it’s kind of funny once you have a real

it’s kind of funny once you have a real

it’s kind of funny once you have a real company with with revenues and profits

company with with revenues and profits

company with with revenues and profits people want to value you based on a

people want to value you based on a

people want to value you based on a multiple of your profits so you know if

multiple of your profits so you know if

multiple of your profits so you know if you’re a slow growing company or a

you’re a slow growing company or a

you’re a slow growing company or a professional service firm you know might

professional service firm you know might

professional service firm you know might be a five times profit or a seven times

be a five times profit or a seven times

be a five times profit or a seven times profit if you’re a tech company you’re

profit if you’re a tech company you’re

profit if you’re a tech company you’re going to get a lot more than that or

going to get a lot more than that or

going to get a lot more than that or maybe it’s a couple times revenue the

maybe it’s a couple times revenue the

maybe it’s a couple times revenue the challenge is win your brand new but the

challenge is win your brand new but the

challenge is win your brand new but the opportunity is to sell the dream this is

opportunity is to sell the dream this is

opportunity is to sell the dream this is a this is a true story i’ll keep it i’ll

a this is a true story i’ll keep it i’ll

a this is a true story i’ll keep it i’ll keep it short but many many years ago I

keep it short but many many years ago I

keep it short but many many years ago I was working at a company in a

was working at a company in a

was working at a company in a partnership and we were uh we had we had

partnership and we were uh we had we had

partnership and we were uh we had we had raised venture capital and we were going

raised venture capital and we were going

raised venture capital and we were going out and getting pitched and investment

out and getting pitched and investment

out and getting pitched and investment bankers were going to go public and we

bankers were going to go public and we

bankers were going to go public and we are talking about this valuation issue

are talking about this valuation issue

are talking about this valuation issue and so our venture capital partner said

and so our venture capital partner said

and so our venture capital partner said are you need to come up with a brand new

are you need to come up with a brand new

are you need to come up with a brand new you know five year plan detailed PL that

you know five year plan detailed PL that

you know five year plan detailed PL that you’re going to show everyone your path

you’re going to show everyone your path

you’re going to show everyone your path to revenues and ultimately profitability

to revenues and ultimately profitability

to revenues and ultimately profitability so the team went back and worked like

so the team went back and worked like

so the team went back and worked like around the clock for weeks on this thing

around the clock for weeks on this thing

around the clock for weeks on this thing spreadsheets models all this stuff right

spreadsheets models all this stuff right

spreadsheets models all this stuff right up to the wire we fly up the Boston we

up to the wire we fly up the Boston we

up to the wire we fly up the Boston we meet with our venture capital partner

meet with our venture capital partner

meet with our venture capital partner it’s midnight the net the pitch this

it’s midnight the net the pitch this

it’s midnight the net the pitch this pitches start the next morning he looks

pitches start the next morning he looks

pitches start the next morning he looks at the RP & L’s and he said oh you guys

at the RP & L’s and he said oh you guys

at the RP & L’s and he said oh you guys messed up he’s I guess I wasn’t clear

messed up he’s I guess I wasn’t clear

messed up he’s I guess I wasn’t clear there’s a problem here what’s the

there’s a problem here what’s the

there’s a problem here what’s the problem he says you show you’re going to

problem he says you show you’re going to

problem he says you show you’re going to be profitable in year four well yeah we

be profitable in year four well yeah we

be profitable in year four well yeah we thought people would want to see how

thought people would want to see how

thought people would want to see how they’re going to get their money back to

they’re going to get their money back to

they’re going to get their money back to really profitable eases no no as soon as

really profitable eases no no as soon as

really profitable eases no no as soon as they see profit they’re going to bring

they see profit they’re going to bring

they see profit they’re going to bring the multiple down you need to show

the multiple down you need to show

the multiple down you need to show losses through your first five years so

losses through your first five years so

losses through your first five years so you can sell the dream I don’t make that

you can sell the dream I don’t make that

you can sell the dream I don’t make that this is sounds like a Hollywood movie

this is sounds like a Hollywood movie

this is sounds like a Hollywood movie Midnight we said well he says you need

Midnight we said well he says you need

Midnight we said well he says you need you need to lose 50 more million dollars

you need to lose 50 more million dollars

you need to lose 50 more million dollars well what are we going to spend it on

well what are we going to spend it on

well what are we going to spend it on like we

like we

like we already calculated all we’re not going

already calculated all we’re not going

already calculated all we’re not going to spend 15 ounces oh no it’s easy just

to spend 15 ounces oh no it’s easy just

to spend 15 ounces oh no it’s easy just put it in marketing at midnight we

put it in marketing at midnight we

put it in marketing at midnight we increased the marketing budget by 50

increased the marketing budget by 50

increased the marketing budget by 50 million dollars over five years tank it

million dollars over five years tank it

million dollars over five years tank it to the P&L two losses and then went out

to the P&L two losses and then went out

to the P&L two losses and then went out and told this story about how huge we

and told this story about how huge we

and told this story about how huge we were going to be but you can’t value us

were going to be but you can’t value us

were going to be but you can’t value us on profits so you know it’s whatever you

on profits so you know it’s whatever you

on profits so you know it’s whatever you think we’re going to be the opportunity

think we’re going to be the opportunity

think we’re going to be the opportunity is and that’s where the market just

is and that’s where the market just

is and that’s where the market just speaks i mean right now if you’ve got a

speaks i mean right now if you’ve got a

speaks i mean right now if you’ve got a SAS software company you know startup

SAS software company you know startup

SAS software company you know startup idea you’re going to go out and you’re

idea you’re going to go out and you’re

idea you’re going to go out and you’re going to get 10 million dollar valuation

going to get 10 million dollar valuation

going to get 10 million dollar valuation from somebody if you bang on enough

from somebody if you bang on enough

from somebody if you bang on enough doors you know a year ago that was maybe

doors you know a year ago that was maybe

doors you know a year ago that was maybe a five million dollar valuation for

a five million dollar valuation for

a five million dollar valuation for years ago maybe you would have gotten a

years ago maybe you would have gotten a

years ago maybe you would have gotten a two and a half million dollar valuation

two and a half million dollar valuation

two and a half million dollar valuation same idea same same startup team it’s

same idea same same startup team it’s

same idea same same startup team it’s just the supply and demand of who wants

just the supply and demand of who wants

just the supply and demand of who wants in on that deal so from our standpoint

in on that deal so from our standpoint

in on that deal so from our standpoint ask for everything you can but

ask for everything you can but

ask for everything you can but unfortunately there’s no real good you

unfortunately there’s no real good you

unfortunately there’s no real good you know logic or math how do you value a

know logic or math how do you value a

know logic or math how do you value a start-up that’s got no customers yet no

start-up that’s got no customers yet no

start-up that’s got no customers yet no revenue yet to speak of it’s what people

revenue yet to speak of it’s what people

revenue yet to speak of it’s what people are willing to pay whatever they’re

are willing to pay whatever they’re

are willing to pay whatever they’re willing to pay my friend Kevin thank you

willing to pay my friend Kevin thank you

willing to pay my friend Kevin thank you so much for spending some time with us

so much for spending some time with us

so much for spending some time with us today for people who want to learn more

today for people who want to learn more

today for people who want to learn more about you and read your books and find

about you and read your books and find

about you and read your books and find out what you’re doing next where can

out what you’re doing next where can

out what you’re doing next where can they go I appreciate that I’m just

they go I appreciate that I’m just

they go I appreciate that I’m just website is Kevin Cruz com that’s Kevin

website is Kevin Cruz com that’s Kevin

website is Kevin Cruz com that’s Kevin then KR u SE kaam and i also have a

then KR u SE kaam and i also have a

then KR u SE kaam and i also have a entrepreneurs journey manifesto that’s

entrepreneurs journey manifesto that’s

entrepreneurs journey manifesto that’s out there just Google entrepreneurs jury

out there just Google entrepreneurs jury

out there just Google entrepreneurs jury manifesto and they’ll find it awesome

manifesto and they’ll find it awesome

manifesto and they’ll find it awesome thank you so much Kevin I really

thank you so much Kevin I really

thank you so much Kevin I really appreciate your time and and the passion

appreciate your time and and the passion

appreciate your time and and the passion and the love that you have for

and the love that you have for

and the love that you have for entrepreneurs hey thanks for what you’re

entrepreneurs hey thanks for what you’re

entrepreneurs hey thanks for what you’re doing for Astra nervous thanks Evan

doing for Astra nervous thanks Evan

doing for Astra nervous thanks Evan cheers

”

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