as we like to say at these evenings no special expertise is needed only a
special expertise is needed only a
special expertise is needed only a curious mind and tonight should be no
curious mind and tonight should be no
curious mind and tonight should be no less inspiring because of very
less inspiring because of very
less inspiring because of very outstanding guests dr. Roger Myerson
outstanding guests dr. Roger Myerson
outstanding guests dr. Roger Myerson Nobel Prize winner in Economic Sciences
Nobel Prize winner in Economic Sciences
Nobel Prize winner in Economic Sciences and dr. Jill proofs primatologist
and dr. Jill proofs primatologist
and dr. Jill proofs primatologist biological anthropologists and National
biological anthropologists and National
biological anthropologists and National Geographic emerging Explorer National
Geographic emerging Explorer National
Geographic emerging Explorer National Geographic grantee the genius of these
Geographic grantee the genius of these
Geographic grantee the genius of these evenings goes beyond just the guests the
evenings goes beyond just the guests the
evenings goes beyond just the guests the experts that we bring here and in the
experts that we bring here and in the
experts that we bring here and in the topics they’re talking about it’s the
topics they’re talking about it’s the
topics they’re talking about it’s the fact that we’ve got different fields and
fact that we’ve got different fields and
fact that we’ve got different fields and when you bring these different fields
when you bring these different fields
when you bring these different fields together we try to find a common threads
together we try to find a common threads
together we try to find a common threads difference of expertise and hopefully
difference of expertise and hopefully
difference of expertise and hopefully they will spark new insight and new
they will spark new insight and new
they will spark new insight and new discoveries by bringing these diverse
discoveries by bringing these diverse
discoveries by bringing these diverse backgrounds together and frankly on
backgrounds together and frankly on
backgrounds together and frankly on hearing some of our past lineups before
hearing some of our past lineups before
hearing some of our past lineups before the evening began I thought how are we
the evening began I thought how are we
the evening began I thought how are we ever gonna connect those two things how
ever gonna connect those two things how
ever gonna connect those two things how are we gonna make it work but it always
are we gonna make it work but it always
are we gonna make it work but it always does tonight on the other hand Roger
does tonight on the other hand Roger
does tonight on the other hand Roger Myerson who among other things looks at
Myerson who among other things looks at
Myerson who among other things looks at models for understanding political
models for understanding political
models for understanding political institutions and jhope roots looks at
institutions and jhope roots looks at
institutions and jhope roots looks at behavior and group dynamics and wild
behavior and group dynamics and wild
behavior and group dynamics and wild chimpanzees and I thought finally we are
chimpanzees and I thought finally we are
chimpanzees and I thought finally we are on the same page so if you will welcome
on the same page so if you will welcome
on the same page so if you will welcome them both this evening and we will begin
them both this evening and we will begin
them both this evening and we will begin the project let me thank you let me try
the project let me thank you let me try
the project let me thank you let me try to introduce myself a little bit I am a
to introduce myself a little bit I am a
to introduce myself a little bit I am a game theorist I work on models of
game theorist I work on models of
game theorist I work on models of conflict and cooperation that have
conflict and cooperation that have
conflict and cooperation that have applications in economics political
applications in economics political
applications in economics political science and elsewhere in life I think
science and elsewhere in life I think
science and elsewhere in life I think it’s important to start by saying game
it’s important to start by saying game
it’s important to start by saying game theory gives us a mathematical language
theory gives us a mathematical language
theory gives us a mathematical language to describe and to analyze people’s
to describe and to analyze people’s
to describe and to analyze people’s incentives when they interact in in
incentives when they interact in in
incentives when they interact in in almost any kind of situation a game
almost any kind of situation a game
almost any kind of situation a game theory is that is a language for
theory is that is a language for
theory is that is a language for describing our social interactions in a
describing our social interactions in a
describing our social interactions in a language that could be described to a
language that could be described to a
language that could be described to a computer or to somebody from another
computer or to somebody from another
computer or to somebody from another world or to somebody from an alien
world or to somebody from an alien
world or to somebody from an alien species perhaps
species perhaps
species perhaps game theoretic models are used to help
game theoretic models are used to help
game theoretic models are used to help understand how changing the rules of any
understand how changing the rules of any
understand how changing the rules of any kind of social institution could affect
kind of social institution could affect
kind of social institution could affect individuals behavior but as I say
individuals behavior but as I say
individuals behavior but as I say tonight I want to bring a passion for
tonight I want to bring a passion for
tonight I want to bring a passion for using our respective methodologies to
using our respective methodologies to
using our respective methodologies to understand fundamental questions of
understand fundamental questions of
understand fundamental questions of social science in particular as the
social science in particular as the
social science in particular as the title the evening suggests I am very
title the evening suggests I am very
title the evening suggests I am very interested in understanding what are the
interested in understanding what are the
interested in understanding what are the essential elements of a successful
essential elements of a successful
essential elements of a successful society I should show you at least one
society I should show you at least one
society I should show you at least one game so here’s a slide with a game each
game so here’s a slide with a game each
game so here’s a slide with a game each of the players has two alternatives a
of the players has two alternatives a
of the players has two alternatives a can choose to claim or yield whatever
can choose to claim or yield whatever
can choose to claim or yield whatever that means and B has two options that
that means and B has two options that
that means and B has two options that I’m calling claim or yield so here for
I’m calling claim or yield so here for
I’m calling claim or yield so here for each of the four row cells here that
each of the four row cells here that
each of the four row cells here that corresponds to a combination of what the
corresponds to a combination of what the
corresponds to a combination of what the players could do their payoff numbers
players could do their payoff numbers
players could do their payoff numbers and each player wants to maximize his or
and each player wants to maximize his or
and each player wants to maximize his or her own payoff that’s their goal so if
her own payoff that’s their goal so if
her own payoff that’s their goal so if you look at these numbers you see that
you look at these numbers you see that
you look at these numbers you see that the combination of actions were eight
the combination of actions were eight
the combination of actions were eight where they both claimed is the worst
where they both claimed is the worst
where they both claimed is the worst outcome for both of them it gives them
outcome for both of them it gives them
outcome for both of them it gives them both a payoff that I’m calling negative
both a payoff that I’m calling negative
both a payoff that I’m calling negative one if a chooses to yield then he gets a
one if a chooses to yield then he gets a
one if a chooses to yield then he gets a payoff of zero no matter what if B
payoff of zero no matter what if B
payoff of zero no matter what if B chooses to yield she gets a payoff of
chooses to yield she gets a payoff of
chooses to yield she gets a payoff of zero no matter what so that’s it because
zero no matter what so that’s it because
zero no matter what so that’s it because the only thing that’s left to say is
the only thing that’s left to say is
the only thing that’s left to say is there’s some number that I’ve called
there’s some number that I’ve called
there’s some number that I’ve called abstract levy but maybe we could call it
abstract levy but maybe we could call it
abstract levy but maybe we could call it a hundred it’s a positive number and
a hundred it’s a positive number and
a hundred it’s a positive number and that’s if if you claim and I yield then
that’s if if you claim and I yield then
that’s if if you claim and I yield then you get a payoff of a V you get to keep
you get a payoff of a V you get to keep
you get a payoff of a V you get to keep the prize you’ve some territory or
the prize you’ve some territory or
the prize you’ve some territory or whatever it is the work I think we’re
whatever it is the work I think we’re
whatever it is the work I think we’re this is a model of our disputing some
this is a model of our disputing some
this is a model of our disputing some possession and if one claims the other
possession and if one claims the other
possession and if one claims the other yields the person called the individual
yields the person called the individual
yields the person called the individual claims it gets the prize so let me stop
claims it gets the prize so let me stop
claims it gets the prize so let me stop there and pass on thank you good evening
there and pass on thank you good evening
there and pass on thank you good evening I’m gonna talk to you about a different
I’m gonna talk to you about a different
I’m gonna talk to you about a different type of society and as you heard I’m a
type of society and as you heard I’m a
type of society and as you heard I’m a biological anthropologist and a
biological anthropologist and a
biological anthropologist and a primatologist and I do study chimpanzees
primatologist and I do study chimpanzees
primatologist and I do study chimpanzees because I love chimpanzees and I think
because I love chimpanzees and I think
because I love chimpanzees and I think they’re very interested interesting in
they’re very interested interesting in
they’re very interested interesting in their own right but as an anthropologist
their own right but as an anthropologist
their own right but as an anthropologist I also study them because I do think
I also study them because I do think
I also study them because I do think that they
that they
that they can give us some insight into her own
can give us some insight into her own
can give us some insight into her own species much of what we know and think
species much of what we know and think
species much of what we know and think about chimpanzees is based on Jane
about chimpanzees is based on Jane
about chimpanzees is based on Jane Goodall’s work and it’s largely based on
Goodall’s work and it’s largely based on
Goodall’s work and it’s largely based on chimps that live in forests my study
chimps that live in forests my study
chimps that live in forests my study side is in West Africa and Senegal
side is in West Africa and Senegal
side is in West Africa and Senegal fungally here on the map and it’s in a
fungally here on the map and it’s in a
fungally here on the map and it’s in a very very different type of habitat and
very very different type of habitat and
very very different type of habitat and I specifically chose that habitat
I specifically chose that habitat
I specifically chose that habitat because it is so different and because
because it is so different and because
because it is so different and because it is a mini ways similar to what we
it is a mini ways similar to what we
it is a mini ways similar to what we think our own species evolved in savanna
think our own species evolved in savanna
think our own species evolved in savanna woodland habitat and chimps at my side
woodland habitat and chimps at my side
woodland habitat and chimps at my side do hunt but what is so different at my
do hunt but what is so different at my
do hunt but what is so different at my site is that males chase monkeys down
site is that males chase monkeys down
site is that males chase monkeys down females and young individuals use tools
females and young individuals use tools
females and young individuals use tools to hunt and that’s something we thought
to hunt and that’s something we thought
to hunt and that’s something we thought was pretty much a human trait what’s
was pretty much a human trait what’s
was pretty much a human trait what’s interesting is that socially there are
interesting is that socially there are
interesting is that socially there are differences in this society that allow
differences in this society that allow
differences in this society that allow that to happen with vongola you have
that to happen with vongola you have
that to happen with vongola you have most of the chimps together all the time
most of the chimps together all the time
most of the chimps together all the time and this stronger degree of social
and this stronger degree of social
and this stronger degree of social cohesion translates into behaviors like
cohesion translates into behaviors like
cohesion translates into behaviors like more tolerant individuals and more
more tolerant individuals and more
more tolerant individuals and more sharing behaviors what you’re not going
sharing behaviors what you’re not going
sharing behaviors what you’re not going to see is sharing in this particular
to see is sharing in this particular
to see is sharing in this particular clip but what you do see is tolerance so
clip but what you do see is tolerance so
clip but what you do see is tolerance so that male is Bilbo
that male is Bilbo
that male is Bilbo he’s a mid to low ranking male he’s got
he’s a mid to low ranking male he’s got
he’s a mid to low ranking male he’s got his rabbit monkey see those guys sitting
his rabbit monkey see those guys sitting
his rabbit monkey see those guys sitting there right in his face those are high
there right in his face those are high
there right in his face those are high ranking individuals in fact the guy on
ranking individuals in fact the guy on
ranking individuals in fact the guy on the right the second highest ranking
the right the second highest ranking
the right the second highest ranking individuals in community but he doesn’t
individuals in community but he doesn’t
individuals in community but he doesn’t take that monkey from Bilbo Bobo’s a
take that monkey from Bilbo Bobo’s a
take that monkey from Bilbo Bobo’s a little annoyed he’s gonna move off a
little annoyed he’s gonna move off a
little annoyed he’s gonna move off a little bit from those guys oh if they’re
little bit from those guys oh if they’re
little bit from those guys oh if they’re just gonna follow him right in his face
just gonna follow him right in his face
just gonna follow him right in his face but that is interesting in itself
but that is interesting in itself
but that is interesting in itself because he’s allowed they we would say
because he’s allowed they we would say
because he’s allowed they we would say with humans respect his ownership of
with humans respect his ownership of
with humans respect his ownership of that monkey and males share with females
that monkey and males share with females
that monkey and males share with females here and they also share tools so that’s
here and they also share tools so that’s
here and they also share tools so that’s something that we’re focusing on now you
something that we’re focusing on now you
something that we’re focusing on now you have tolerance by males and asserted
have tolerance by males and asserted
have tolerance by males and asserted assertiveness by females in it’s quite a
assertiveness by females in it’s quite a
assertiveness by females in it’s quite a complex situation but I will stop there
complex situation but I will stop there
complex situation but I will stop there now and hopefully we will discuss some
now and hopefully we will discuss some
now and hopefully we will discuss some of this thank you
Rogers will come up I don’t know about
Rogers will come up I don’t know about you but I have a lot of questions after
you but I have a lot of questions after
you but I have a lot of questions after hearing this talk you’re looking at
hearing this talk you’re looking at
hearing this talk you’re looking at these chimps because of their the
these chimps because of their the
these chimps because of their the environment in the Savannah is being
environment in the Savannah is being
environment in the Savannah is being perhaps representative of the develop of
perhaps representative of the develop of
perhaps representative of the develop of the early hominids that in the same
the early hominids that in the same
the early hominids that in the same environment right and so would this be
environment right and so would this be
environment right and so would this be the first signs of compassion in humans
the first signs of compassion in humans
the first signs of compassion in humans is that what began to separate us or
is that what began to separate us or
is that what began to separate us or this banding together that we’ve got to
this banding together that we’ve got to
this banding together that we’ve got to work together we can’t all be
work together we can’t all be
work together we can’t all be individuals if we’re going to survive as
individuals if we’re going to survive as
individuals if we’re going to survive as a species did that take us to the next
a species did that take us to the next
a species did that take us to the next level well I mean I I think definitely
level well I mean I I think definitely
level well I mean I I think definitely you would argue that there was
you would argue that there was
you would argue that there was compassion and other apes and and
compassion and other apes and and
compassion and other apes and and primates but I do think the what you see
primates but I do think the what you see
primates but I do think the what you see is a different level of social cohesion
is a different level of social cohesion
is a different level of social cohesion in these Savannah chimps that has
in these Savannah chimps that has
in these Savannah chimps that has affected their sharing and I guess
affected their sharing and I guess
affected their sharing and I guess sharing cooperation is where I’m focused
sharing cooperation is where I’m focused
sharing cooperation is where I’m focused right now and the more I learn about it
right now and the more I learn about it
right now and the more I learn about it I always learn about it first in
I always learn about it first in
I always learn about it first in chimpanzees and then I go to the human
chimpanzees and then I go to the human
chimpanzees and then I go to the human literature and learn a little bit about
literature and learn a little bit about
literature and learn a little bit about myself I guess or at least my species
myself I guess or at least my species
myself I guess or at least my species but that seems to me something that I
but that seems to me something that I
but that seems to me something that I think is incredibly important and it’s
think is incredibly important and it’s
think is incredibly important and it’s it’s overlooked because we tend to may
it’s overlooked because we tend to may
it’s overlooked because we tend to may be not humans but in the term the chimp
be not humans but in the term the chimp
be not humans but in the term the chimp literature we tend to look at things
literature we tend to look at things
literature we tend to look at things like aggression it’s it’s a sexy topic
like aggression it’s it’s a sexy topic
like aggression it’s it’s a sexy topic and we tend to focus on how how
and we tend to focus on how how
and we tend to focus on how how aggressive chimps can be and they
aggressive chimps can be and they
aggressive chimps can be and they definitely can be as can humans but I
definitely can be as can humans but I
definitely can be as can humans but I think that sharing cooperation is
think that sharing cooperation is
think that sharing cooperation is something that is is key to our own
something that is is key to our own
something that is is key to our own species and I do think these Savannah
species and I do think these Savannah
species and I do think these Savannah chimps show how it might have developed
chimps show how it might have developed
chimps show how it might have developed I thought it was very unusual to see Jim
I thought it was very unusual to see Jim
I thought it was very unusual to see Jim sit there and let one Eden and the
sit there and let one Eden and the
sit there and let one Eden and the others not just grab a piece of it right
others not just grab a piece of it right
others not just grab a piece of it right and tear off something they can’t not
and tear off something they can’t not
and tear off something they can’t not think what am I gonna get out of this
think what am I gonna get out of this
think what am I gonna get out of this even if I’m gonna sit there and not get
even if I’m gonna sit there and not get
even if I’m gonna sit there and not get a piece of meat immediately there’s
a piece of meat immediately there’s
a piece of meat immediately there’s something that they’re getting for
something that they’re getting for
something that they’re getting for exhibiting that kind of thing well and
exhibiting that kind of thing well and
exhibiting that kind of thing well and what well what you see also is there’s a
what well what you see also is there’s a
what well what you see also is there’s a degree of policing behavior by other
degree of policing behavior by other
degree of policing behavior by other individuals so if for example one of
individuals so if for example one of
individuals so if for example one of those males would have taken the monkey
those males would have taken the monkey
those males would have taken the monkey from Bilbo you’d have had five other
from Bilbo you’d have had five other
from Bilbo you’d have had five other males come up and reprimand him for it
males come up and reprimand him for it
males come up and reprimand him for it which in chimpanzees would be chasing
which in chimpanzees would be chasing
which in chimpanzees would be chasing him down and trying to beat him up so
him down and trying to beat him up so
him down and trying to beat him up so that’s what he’s getting out of it is
that’s what he’s getting out of it is
that’s what he’s getting out of it is safety and he’s not getting any part
safety and he’s not getting any part
safety and he’s not getting any part it’s it’s it’s the way that their
it’s it’s it’s the way that their
it’s it’s it’s the way that their society is supposed to behave I guess
society is supposed to behave I guess
society is supposed to behave I guess you might say it’s it’s not the norm for
you might say it’s it’s not the norm for
you might say it’s it’s not the norm for their society is to be tolerant but at
their society is to be tolerant but at
their society is to be tolerant but at other sites the leader in other
other sites the leader in other
other sites the leader in other chimpanzees
chimpanzees
chimpanzees alpha-male as far as they know it almost
alpha-male as far as they know it almost
alpha-male as far as they know it almost every other site will go up and just
every other site will go up and just
every other site will go up and just take take that prey item away but but
take take that prey item away but but
take take that prey item away but but not not here where does how does
not not here where does how does
not not here where does how does ownership fit into your your
ownership fit into your your
ownership fit into your your mathematical models because in the end
mathematical models because in the end
mathematical models because in the end people want to own stuff and where did
people want to own stuff and where did
people want to own stuff and where did that begin in society when you think
that begin in society when you think
that begin in society when you think within the stories we’ve heard about the
within the stories we’ve heard about the
within the stories we’ve heard about the the chimpanzee community when when when
the chimpanzee community when when when
the chimpanzee community when when when ownership rights when the ability to to
ownership rights when the ability to to
ownership rights when the ability to to retain control of one’s own kill by
retain control of one’s own kill by
retain control of one’s own kill by virtue of having achieved the kill
virtue of having achieved the kill
virtue of having achieved the kill becomes a part of the culture you would
becomes a part of the culture you would
becomes a part of the culture you would then have more animals owning so one of
then have more animals owning so one of
then have more animals owning so one of things we can say is when we distribute
things we can say is when we distribute
things we can say is when we distribute secure protected property rights to more
secure protected property rights to more
secure protected property rights to more people we expect more investment and
people we expect more investment and
people we expect more investment and more and more prosperity that’s that a
more and more prosperity that’s that a
more and more prosperity that’s that a nutshell is one of the most important
nutshell is one of the most important
nutshell is one of the most important lessons of development of how I think of
lessons of development of how I think of
lessons of development of how I think of how humanity has has achieved such
how humanity has has achieved such
how humanity has has achieved such enormous success and how I hope we’ll
enormous success and how I hope we’ll
enormous success and how I hope we’ll enjoy even greater material prosperity
enjoy even greater material prosperity
enjoy even greater material prosperity in the future it is very important to
in the future it is very important to
in the future it is very important to say that changing the rules of property
say that changing the rules of property
say that changing the rules of property rights in the long run can change
rights in the long run can change
rights in the long run can change economic dynamics in ways that are of
economic dynamics in ways that are of
economic dynamics in ways that are of the most important in the world I was at
the most important in the world I was at
the most important in the world I was at a National Geographic site where we had
a National Geographic site where we had
a National Geographic site where we had our funding some research archeology
our funding some research archeology
our funding some research archeology Neolithic village and they’d been
Neolithic village and they’d been
Neolithic village and they’d been digging back and they discovered that
digging back and they discovered that
digging back and they discovered that there was a time in this village they
there was a time in this village they
there was a time in this village they kept building
kept building
kept building centuries later on top of it that there
centuries later on top of it that there
centuries later on top of it that there was no ownership people to know anything
was no ownership people to know anything
was no ownership people to know anything they discovered this but then they get
they discovered this but then they get
they discovered this but then they get to a port where they see that people
to a port where they see that people
to a port where they see that people were starting to hide a few things in
were starting to hide a few things in
were starting to hide a few things in their little room that the rest of the
their little room that the rest of the
their little room that the rest of the village didn’t know about so they had
village didn’t know about so they had
village didn’t know about so they had secret ownership do you see that in the
secret ownership do you see that in the
secret ownership do you see that in the chimpanzees do they go off and hide
chimpanzees do they go off and hide
chimpanzees do they go off and hide things from the rest of the Greek name
things from the rest of the Greek name
things from the rest of the Greek name do they have on earth they do I’ve seen
do they have on earth they do I’ve seen
do they have on earth they do I’ve seen that specifically meat is a very prized
that specifically meat is a very prized
that specifically meat is a very prized possession and even though those males
possession and even though those males
possession and even though those males respected you know Bilbo’s rights they
respected you know Bilbo’s rights they
respected you know Bilbo’s rights they were in his face and oftentimes females
were in his face and oftentimes females
were in his face and oftentimes females will be even more in your face and the
will be even more in your face and the
will be even more in your face and the males tend to be a little bit harassed
males tend to be a little bit harassed
males tend to be a little bit harassed and and will move about and I’ve seen
and and will move about and I’ve seen
and and will move about and I’ve seen the low ranking males separate the most
the low ranking males separate the most
the low ranking males separate the most successful one once he gets a monkey
successful one once he gets a monkey
successful one once he gets a monkey will eat it quite quickly and then once
will eat it quite quickly and then once
will eat it quite quickly and then once he’s you know somewhat satiated I say
he’s you know somewhat satiated I say
he’s you know somewhat satiated I say he’ll go and find that other individuals
he’ll go and find that other individuals
he’ll go and find that other individuals but he’s very quiet about it when he
but he’s very quiet about it when he
but he’s very quiet about it when he first finds gets the monkey doesn’t
first finds gets the monkey doesn’t
first finds gets the monkey doesn’t advertise it and then he goes on and he
advertise it and then he goes on and he
advertise it and then he goes on and he does share he shares with his buddies
does share he shares with his buddies
does share he shares with his buddies who support him and coalition airy ways
who support him and coalition airy ways
who support him and coalition airy ways etcetera but yeah I’ve seen what you
etcetera but yeah I’ve seen what you
etcetera but yeah I’ve seen what you would call deception I’ve seen it it’s
would call deception I’ve seen it it’s
would call deception I’ve seen it it’s it’s more obvious with captive chimps
it’s more obvious with captive chimps
it’s more obvious with captive chimps where they hide possessions that you’ve
where they hide possessions that you’ve
where they hide possessions that you’ve given them usually food but I I do see
given them usually food but I I do see
given them usually food but I I do see it with with meat specifically and even
it with with meat specifically and even
it with with meat specifically and even with us sometimes they’re a little
with us sometimes they’re a little
with us sometimes they’re a little nervous about us watching too closely
nervous about us watching too closely
nervous about us watching too closely because I tend to watch the meat-eating
because I tend to watch the meat-eating
because I tend to watch the meat-eating quite close and they don’t seem to like
quite close and they don’t seem to like
quite close and they don’t seem to like me doing that very much so well do they
me doing that very much so well do they
me doing that very much so well do they have other possessions besides food that
have other possessions besides food that
have other possessions besides food that would be the most basic instinct that
would be the most basic instinct that
would be the most basic instinct that you need but because you mentioned they
you need but because you mentioned they
you need but because you mentioned they they’re one chimp that
they’re one chimp that
they’re one chimp that tools tools there’s a few instances of
tools tools there’s a few instances of
tools tools there’s a few instances of tools sharing but do they find others
tools sharing but do they find others
tools sharing but do they find others possessions that they just have to have
possessions that they just have to have
possessions that they just have to have do they have is there anything that they
do they have is there anything that they
do they have is there anything that they do they start collecting do they become
do they start collecting do they become
do they start collecting do they become a consumer society in any way no
a consumer society in any way no
a consumer society in any way no necessarily there are a few instances
necessarily there are a few instances
necessarily there are a few instances and they’re somewhat morbid and so
and they’re somewhat morbid and so
and they’re somewhat morbid and so usually young individuals will catch
usually young individuals will catch
usually young individuals will catch certain animals that they don’t eat like
certain animals that they don’t eat like
certain animals that they don’t eat like Jeanette’s I can’t like animal mongooses
Jeanette’s I can’t like animal mongooses
Jeanette’s I can’t like animal mongooses and they won’t eat them but they’ll play
and they won’t eat them but they’ll play
and they won’t eat them but they’ll play with them and it doesn’t turn out well
with them and it doesn’t turn out well
with them and it doesn’t turn out well for that little animal so it’s somewhat
for that little animal so it’s somewhat
for that little animal so it’s somewhat like a doll for the rest of the day and
like a doll for the rest of the day and
like a doll for the rest of the day and they do exhibit ownership of that
they do exhibit ownership of that
they do exhibit ownership of that plaything is what it becomes and I’ve
plaything is what it becomes and I’ve
plaything is what it becomes and I’ve seen that maybe yes and then I mean
seen that maybe yes and then I mean
seen that maybe yes and then I mean there’s there’s definitely what I would
there’s there’s definitely what I would
there’s there’s definitely what I would call jealousy in terms of male female
call jealousy in terms of male female
call jealousy in terms of male female behavior when females are in estrus and
behavior when females are in estrus and
behavior when females are in estrus and that sort of thing but yeah as far as
that sort of thing but yeah as far as
that sort of thing but yeah as far as objects not not to any extent like you
objects not not to any extent like you
objects not not to any extent like you see in humans but other than food but
see in humans but other than food but
see in humans but other than food but every once in while a Yosi position is
every once in while a Yosi position is
every once in while a Yosi position is well there was something that came up in
well there was something that came up in
well there was something that came up in what you were showing us and talking
what you were showing us and talking
what you were showing us and talking about that got me interested in Rogers
about that got me interested in Rogers
about that got me interested in Rogers take on this and that is that a lot of
take on this and that is that a lot of
take on this and that is that a lot of the trouble began with the females
the trouble began with the females
the trouble began with the females so the guy comes into the cave he’s
so the guy comes into the cave he’s
so the guy comes into the cave he’s fighting because he wants the woman or
fighting because he wants the woman or
fighting because he wants the woman or they’re fighting over a tool or they
they’re fighting over a tool or they
they’re fighting over a tool or they have to let the woman have her meal so
have to let the woman have her meal so
have to let the woman have her meal so Roger in your formulas do you figure in
Roger in your formulas do you figure in
Roger in your formulas do you figure in mathematically the gender of the group
mathematically the gender of the group
mathematically the gender of the group well obviously I would assume that that
well obviously I would assume that that
well obviously I would assume that that that mating rights are important the
that mating rights are important the
that mating rights are important the thing that chimpanzees and humans can
thing that chimpanzees and humans can
thing that chimpanzees and humans can quarrel over one of the things we had
quarrel over one of the things we had
quarrel over one of the things we had the question of the evolution of
the question of the evolution of
the question of the evolution of monogamy in the world is again something
monogamy in the world is again something
monogamy in the world is again something which tends to make the monogamous
which tends to make the monogamous
which tends to make the monogamous societies have been able to expand
societies have been able to expand
societies have been able to expand better in the world it’s a because it
better in the world it’s a because it
better in the world it’s a because it reduces a source of tension when each
reduces a source of tension when each
reduces a source of tension when each male is limited to one female that the
male is limited to one female that the
male is limited to one female that the the facts of males being able to
the facts of males being able to
the facts of males being able to impregnate multiple females I’m sure I
impregnate multiple females I’m sure I
impregnate multiple females I’m sure I believe I understand to be an important
believe I understand to be an important
believe I understand to be an important source of possible friction in in
source of possible friction in in
source of possible friction in in chimpanzee ork to human societies we
chimpanzee ork to human societies we
chimpanzee ork to human societies we establish rules within within rules and
establish rules within within rules and
establish rules within within rules and how are those rules enforced again by
how are those rules enforced again by
how are those rules enforced again by loss of social status if you if you
loss of social status if you if you
loss of social status if you if you violate the rules and so shows social
violate the rules and so shows social
violate the rules and so shows social status which we’ve also heard a lot
status which we’ve also heard a lot
status which we’ve also heard a lot about the ability if I’m higher status
about the ability if I’m higher status
about the ability if I’m higher status than you there sometimes I can take some
than you there sometimes I can take some
than you there sometimes I can take some things from you perhaps but if I obey
things from you perhaps but if I obey
things from you perhaps but if I obey the rules then I rise in status and and
the rules then I rise in status and and
the rules then I rise in status and and the rules can be functional for society
the rules can be functional for society
the rules can be functional for society one of these either but it’s very
one of these either but it’s very
one of these either but it’s very striking to me in looking at some of the
striking to me in looking at some of the
striking to me in looking at some of the earliest writing that comes out of
earliest writing that comes out of
earliest writing that comes out of ancient Babylon that one of the first
ancient Babylon that one of the first
ancient Babylon that one of the first things they’re writing about is debt and
things they’re writing about is debt and
things they’re writing about is debt and so compassion is giving to someone else
so compassion is giving to someone else
so compassion is giving to someone else but a sense that I owe you something
but a sense that I owe you something
but a sense that I owe you something that’s something that it’s been inhuman
that’s something that it’s been inhuman
that’s something that it’s been inhuman among humans as long as we’ve been
among humans as long as we’ve been
among humans as long as we’ve been writing and that’s one first as we chose
writing and that’s one first as we chose
writing and that’s one first as we chose to write about but the chimpanzees show
to write about but the chimpanzees show
to write about but the chimpanzees show a set of sense of specific debt I did
a set of sense of specific debt I did
a set of sense of specific debt I did this for you so therefore there’s
this for you so therefore there’s
this for you so therefore there’s definitely a sense of debt a reciprocal
definitely a sense of debt a reciprocal
definitely a sense of debt a reciprocal altruism some call it so I do this for
altruism some call it so I do this for
altruism some call it so I do this for you I share meat with you you share meat
you I share meat with you you share meat
you I share meat with you you share meat with me and there’s actually reaction
with me and there’s actually reaction
with me and there’s actually reaction when you see an unfair response so I
when you see an unfair response so I
when you see an unfair response so I shared my monkey with you two months ago
shared my monkey with you two months ago
shared my monkey with you two months ago and chimps are long live so you also
and chimps are long live so you also
and chimps are long live so you also have very long term relationships and
have very long term relationships and
have very long term relationships and there can be punishment for something
there can be punishment for something
there can be punishment for something that is you know sort of against the
that is you know sort of against the
that is you know sort of against the grain of how the behavior works in terms
grain of how the behavior works in terms
grain of how the behavior works in terms of supporting
of supporting
of supporting individuals and social interactions
individuals and social interactions
individuals and social interactions that’s definitely important so support
that’s definitely important so support
that’s definitely important so support for you on this day means you should
for you on this day means you should
for you on this day means you should support me the the following week or
support me the the following week or
support me the the following week or month and and that sort of thing so it’s
month and and that sort of thing so it’s
month and and that sort of thing so it’s definitely the case in chimpanzees
definitely the case in chimpanzees
definitely the case in chimpanzees they’ve seen it in other primates as
they’ve seen it in other primates as
they’ve seen it in other primates as well but especially among among males
well but especially among among males
well but especially among among males where coalition’s are so important in
where coalition’s are so important in
where coalition’s are so important in dominance rarely can a male chimp stay
dominance rarely can a male chimp stay
dominance rarely can a male chimp stay very long at the at the top of the
very long at the at the top of the
very long at the at the top of the hierarchy without support so in your
hierarchy without support so in your
hierarchy without support so in your analyzing of what makes systems most
analyzing of what makes systems most
analyzing of what makes systems most effective in society’s most effective
effective in society’s most effective
effective in society’s most effective you’re constantly saying we need to
you’re constantly saying we need to
you’re constantly saying we need to tweak here and tweak there and make some
tweak here and tweak there and make some
tweak here and tweak there and make some changes and this is leads me to the look
changes and this is leads me to the look
changes and this is leads me to the look at chimpanzees do they ever do you see
at chimpanzees do they ever do you see
at chimpanzees do they ever do you see any progression or is this generation of
any progression or is this generation of
any progression or is this generation of chimpanzees the same as the one before
chimpanzees the same as the one before
chimpanzees the same as the one before the one before did they ever build on
the one before did they ever build on
the one before did they ever build on and modify well interaction yeah it’s a
and modify well interaction yeah it’s a
and modify well interaction yeah it’s a good question
good question
good question since chimps are so long-lived we for
since chimps are so long-lived we for
since chimps are so long-lived we for example I think I followed so far maybe
example I think I followed so far maybe
example I think I followed so far maybe one generation I’ve been studying them
one generation I’ve been studying them
one generation I’ve been studying them for 11 years not quite a generation so
for 11 years not quite a generation so
for 11 years not quite a generation so it’s it’s hard to look right now and
it’s it’s hard to look right now and
it’s it’s hard to look right now and understand what’s going on but it’s in
understand what’s going on but it’s in
understand what’s going on but it’s in baboons for example they’ve they’ve got
baboons for example they’ve they’ve got
baboons for example they’ve they’ve got a wonderful example of there’s an
a wonderful example of there’s an
a wonderful example of there’s an unfortunate situation for some
unfortunate situation for some
unfortunate situation for some individuals but most of the the dominant
individuals but most of the the dominant
individuals but most of the the dominant males died off from tuberculosis and
males died off from tuberculosis and
males died off from tuberculosis and what happened was these subordinate
what happened was these subordinate
what happened was these subordinate males were then the guys running the
males were then the guys running the
males were then the guys running the group well it was a much more Pacific
group well it was a much more Pacific
group well it was a much more Pacific situation the group was less aggressive
situation the group was less aggressive
situation the group was less aggressive and even when those males died off the
and even when those males died off the
and even when those males died off the other individuals kept that social
other individuals kept that social
other individuals kept that social system didn’t allow more aggressive
system didn’t allow more aggressive
system didn’t allow more aggressive individuals to rise up the dominance
individuals to rise up the dominance
individuals to rise up the dominance hierarchy so you saw a complete change
hierarchy so you saw a complete change
hierarchy so you saw a complete change and the culture of those baboons even
and the culture of those baboons even
and the culture of those baboons even though we normally don’t think of
though we normally don’t think of
though we normally don’t think of baboons is having culture at least chimp
baboons is having culture at least chimp
baboons is having culture at least chimp folks or others but it’s it’s it was a
folks or others but it’s it’s it was a
folks or others but it’s it’s it was a great example and so we do see changes
great example and so we do see changes
great example and so we do see changes and I think a lot of it has to do with
and I think a lot of it has to do with
and I think a lot of it has to do with leadership and so the leader right now
leadership and so the leader right now
leadership and so the leader right now of the fungally group is a pretty
of the fungally group is a pretty
of the fungally group is a pretty aggressive young guy but he’s he’s quite
aggressive young guy but he’s he’s quite
aggressive young guy but he’s he’s quite intelligent as well I’d say he’s
intelligent as well I’d say he’s
intelligent as well I’d say he’s different from the previous male who was
different from the previous male who was
different from the previous male who was less aggressive it’s it’s sort of just
less aggressive it’s it’s sort of just
less aggressive it’s it’s sort of just feel like I know just a tiny bit of
feel like I know just a tiny bit of
feel like I know just a tiny bit of what’s going on right now and even the
what’s going on right now and even the
what’s going on right now and even the Jane Goodall site we’ve you
Jane Goodall site we’ve you
Jane Goodall site we’ve you fifty years so it could be the lifespan
fifty years so it could be the lifespan
fifty years so it could be the lifespan of one chimpanzee you do have evidence
of one chimpanzee you do have evidence
of one chimpanzee you do have evidence in the animal world of society is
in the animal world of society is
in the animal world of society is morphing and changed what we would say
morphing and changed what we would say
morphing and changed what we would say improving or at least making life better
improving or at least making life better
improving or at least making life better for that generation mm-hmm
for that generation mm-hmm
for that generation mm-hmm one quick this is just totally aside but
one quick this is just totally aside but
one quick this is just totally aside but I was just wondering if the hot tub yes
I was just wondering if the hot tub yes
I was just wondering if the hot tub yes gems do they have wine or drinks fruits
gems do they have wine or drinks fruits
gems do they have wine or drinks fruits fruits don’t take fruits of a hot tub
fruits don’t take fruits of a hot tub
fruits don’t take fruits of a hot tub right yeah uh-huh so they do understand
right yeah uh-huh so they do understand
right yeah uh-huh so they do understand pleasure and they find ways to satisfy
pleasure and they find ways to satisfy
pleasure and they find ways to satisfy hey that that are out of the norm for
hey that that are out of the norm for
hey that that are out of the norm for chimpanzee behavior
chimpanzee behavior
chimpanzee behavior definitely so societies can more for not
definitely so societies can more for not
definitely so societies can more for not just monetary reasons or food reasons
just monetary reasons or food reasons
just monetary reasons or food reasons right yeah Comfort it’s a very different
right yeah Comfort it’s a very different
right yeah Comfort it’s a very different type of society in fact we now that we
type of society in fact we now that we
type of society in fact we now that we know more and more about chimps we used
know more and more about chimps we used
know more and more about chimps we used to think of you know a chimpanzee and
to think of you know a chimpanzee and
to think of you know a chimpanzee and how a chimp behaves and we know that
how a chimp behaves and we know that
how a chimp behaves and we know that they’re diverse across the the
they’re diverse across the the
they’re diverse across the the geographic range and in fact some just
geographic range and in fact some just
geographic range and in fact some just minor behaviors and the example like to
minor behaviors and the example like to
minor behaviors and the example like to give is leaf clipping is a very simple
give is leaf clipping is a very simple
give is leaf clipping is a very simple behavior so at my site before males
behavior so at my site before males
behavior so at my site before males start to display they’ll just take a
start to display they’ll just take a
start to display they’ll just take a leaf off of a tree and they’ll just chip
leaf off of a tree and they’ll just chip
leaf off of a tree and they’ll just chip kind of pull away pieces of the leaf
kind of pull away pieces of the leaf
kind of pull away pieces of the leaf with their their mouth and then they’ll
with their their mouth and then they’ll
with their their mouth and then they’ll start their display and that to me and
start their display and that to me and
start their display and that to me and to other individuals especially females
to other individuals especially females
to other individuals especially females a signal to get ready to get out of the
a signal to get ready to get out of the
a signal to get ready to get out of the way of that guy he’s about to display
way of that guy he’s about to display
way of that guy he’s about to display but in Tanzania that is a signal that
but in Tanzania that is a signal that
but in Tanzania that is a signal that the male wants the female to come and
the male wants the female to come and
the male wants the female to come and mate with him so very simple behavior
mate with him so very simple behavior
mate with him so very simple behavior completely different signal and so I
completely different signal and so I
completely different signal and so I think that’s a you know simple but
think that’s a you know simple but
think that’s a you know simple but elegant an example of how you know you
elegant an example of how you know you
elegant an example of how you know you have they do the grooming the chimps
have they do the grooming the chimps
have they do the grooming the chimps here where they will pick termites or
here where they will pick termites or
here where they will pick termites or bugs off of the other one and so right
bugs off of the other one and so right
bugs off of the other one and so right yeah just you’re like I’m here not as
yeah just you’re like I’m here not as
yeah just you’re like I’m here not as though right and now do we see this in
though right and now do we see this in
though right and now do we see this in your human dynamics in which sometimes
your human dynamics in which sometimes
your human dynamics in which sometimes we are motivated not just by the the
we are motivated not just by the the
we are motivated not just by the the bottom line or the dollar that it’s a
bottom line or the dollar that it’s a
bottom line or the dollar that it’s a purely pleasure and the hot tub we want
purely pleasure and the hot tub we want
purely pleasure and the hot tub we want our time in the hot tub obviously we are
our time in the hot tub obviously we are
our time in the hot tub obviously we are we’re social animals when one’s trying
we’re social animals when one’s trying
we’re social animals when one’s trying to understand the nature of competition
to understand the nature of competition
to understand the nature of competition one wants to focus on the the the the
one wants to focus on the the the the
one wants to focus on the the the the the the possibility of divergent
the the possibility of divergent
the the possibility of divergent interests
interests
interests I think Madison talking about the
I think Madison talking about the
I think Madison talking about the construction you know the the designing
construction you know the the designing
construction you know the the designing of a constitution for this country who
of a constitution for this country who
of a constitution for this country who said that if everyone was angels if
said that if everyone was angels if
said that if everyone was angels if people were angels we wouldn’t need a
people were angels we wouldn’t need a
people were angels we wouldn’t need a constitution so so I the reason why I
constitution so so I the reason why I
constitution so so I the reason why I think we we technique UNAM us tend to
think we we technique UNAM us tend to
think we we technique UNAM us tend to focus on the selfish aspects which are
focus on the selfish aspects which are
focus on the selfish aspects which are only a part of what of our motivation is
only a part of what of our motivation is
only a part of what of our motivation is in some sense because we’re trying to
in some sense because we’re trying to
in some sense because we’re trying to understand how to build better societies
understand how to build better societies
understand how to build better societies and for that if you assume that people
and for that if you assume that people
and for that if you assume that people are already socially motivated then in
are already socially motivated then in
are already socially motivated then in some sense the social problem is easy
some sense the social problem is easy
some sense the social problem is easy everyone will try to make our society
everyone will try to make our society
everyone will try to make our society better to the extent that people are
better to the extent that people are
better to the extent that people are individually motivated and then then the
individually motivated and then then the
individually motivated and then then the design of our society makes a difference
design of our society makes a difference
design of our society makes a difference with the chimps we’re seeing that it’s
with the chimps we’re seeing that it’s
with the chimps we’re seeing that it’s really the leader that’s setting the
really the leader that’s setting the
really the leader that’s setting the rules makes the big difference so is it
rules makes the big difference so is it
rules makes the big difference so is it the Constitution or the leader that
the Constitution or the leader that
the Constitution or the leader that makes the most difference for society
makes the most difference for society
makes the most difference for society for human question as I said I think
for human question as I said I think
for human question as I said I think this is my somewhat radical position
this is my somewhat radical position
this is my somewhat radical position within the profession I think we’ve all
within the profession I think we’ve all
within the profession I think we’ve all gone too far in thinking that writing
gone too far in thinking that writing
gone too far in thinking that writing down rules is the point it’s I think
down rules is the point it’s I think
down rules is the point it’s I think leadership which in which is a
leadership which in which is a
leadership which in which is a continuous phenomenon from from
continuous phenomenon from from
continuous phenomenon from from chimpanzees to humans it’s not notice
chimpanzees to humans it’s not notice
chimpanzees to humans it’s not notice it’s qualitative it’s different in some
it’s qualitative it’s different in some
it’s qualitative it’s different in some ways but this clearly the same
ways but this clearly the same
ways but this clearly the same phenomenon is what comes first and and I
phenomenon is what comes first and and I
phenomenon is what comes first and and I tried to indicate before in a very
tried to indicate before in a very
tried to indicate before in a very profound sense I believe the efficacy of
profound sense I believe the efficacy of
profound sense I believe the efficacy of written laws depends at some level on
written laws depends at some level on
written laws depends at some level on our having individuals who are prominent
our having individuals who are prominent
our having individuals who are prominent and prestigious or leaders in our
and prestigious or leaders in our
and prestigious or leaders in our society who have a reputation for
society who have a reputation for
society who have a reputation for enforcing laws for example I I think as
enforcing laws for example I I think as
enforcing laws for example I I think as I as I read history and try to
I as I read history and try to
I as I read history and try to understand how does it all work the fact
understand how does it all work the fact
understand how does it all work the fact that it is as as people have said
that it is as as people have said
that it is as as people have said possible for someone to love the law and
possible for someone to love the law and
possible for someone to love the law and you know senior jurists or are like that
you know senior jurists or are like that
you know senior jurists or are like that the fact that it’s possible for to love
the fact that it’s possible for to love
the fact that it’s possible for to love the law means that some people who don’t
the law means that some people who don’t
the law means that some people who don’t actually love the law would like to
actually love the law would like to
actually love the law would like to pretend to love the law because you know
pretend to love the law because you know
pretend to love the law because you know it’s possible and then you can become a
it’s possible and then you can become a
it’s possible and then you can become a prominent jurist that way but then what
prominent jurist that way but then what
prominent jurist that way but then what do you do when you love the law or are
do you do when you love the law or are
do you do when you love the law or are pretending the answer is you enforce it
pretending the answer is you enforce it
pretending the answer is you enforce it the way it’s written and now we have a
the way it’s written and now we have a
the way it’s written and now we have a possible we have a cadre of people who
possible we have a cadre of people who
possible we have a cadre of people who we can rely on in society to do their
we can rely on in society to do their
we can rely on in society to do their bit to make sure
bit to make sure
bit to make sure that laws are applied appropriately
that laws are applied appropriately
that laws are applied appropriately there’s been a most interesting
there’s been a most interesting
there’s been a most interesting conversation most revealing the fact
conversation most revealing the fact
conversation most revealing the fact that we have really not moved that far
that we have really not moved that far
that we have really not moved that far beyond where we were I’m convinced to
beyond where we were I’m convinced to
beyond where we were I’m convinced to understand ourselves that she’s on the
understand ourselves that she’s on the
understand ourselves that she’s on the right path it’s important though I don’t
right path it’s important though I don’t
right path it’s important though I don’t know where we should look Mart or should
know where we should look Mart or should
know where we should look Mart or should we look to Senegal or should we look to
we look to Senegal or should we look to
we look to Senegal or should we look to the boardrooms to find out how we’re
the boardrooms to find out how we’re
the boardrooms to find out how we’re gonna form the best society or to
gonna form the best society or to
gonna form the best society or to Congress it’s just it’s a flip of the
Congress it’s just it’s a flip of the
Congress it’s just it’s a flip of the coin thank you for being here this
coin thank you for being here this
coin thank you for being here this evening
”
Be First to Comment