you’re not on earbuds is there any value me being on earbuds ah totally up to you
me being on earbuds ah totally up to you
me being on earbuds ah totally up to you we just my life that’s great welcome
we just my life that’s great welcome
we just my life that’s great welcome everybody is gonna hook Google+ Hangout
everybody is gonna hook Google+ Hangout
everybody is gonna hook Google+ Hangout i’m super excited to have with me rich
i’m super excited to have with me rich
i’m super excited to have with me rich sheridan who’s a co-founder of menlo
sheridan who’s a co-founder of menlo
sheridan who’s a co-founder of menlo which is a software development company
which is a software development company
which is a software development company and he’s also the author of one of my
and he’s also the author of one of my
and he’s also the author of one of my new favorite books I’ve got it here joy
new favorite books I’ve got it here joy
new favorite books I’ve got it here joy inc and let me see if i could bring it
inc and let me see if i could bring it
inc and let me see if i could bring it can i bring it up here we can see like
can i bring it up here we can see like
can i bring it up here we can see like all the other ears on here like almost
all the other ears on here like almost
all the other ears on here like almost every page i’m like taking notes and
every page i’m like taking notes and
every page i’m like taking notes and it’s all marked up and scratched up and
it’s all marked up and scratched up and
it’s all marked up and scratched up and highlighted so i thought i got to get
highlighted so i thought i got to get
highlighted so i thought i got to get rich on the show and reach so you know
rich on the show and reach so you know
rich on the show and reach so you know i’ve been doing a series interviewing
i’ve been doing a series interviewing
i’ve been doing a series interviewing entrepreneurs who have found one word
entrepreneurs who have found one word
entrepreneurs who have found one word that kind of helps to find who they are
that kind of helps to find who they are
that kind of helps to find who they are you know I’m believe you see on the wall
you know I’m believe you see on the wall
you know I’m believe you see on the wall here and when I saw the book joy Inc I
here and when I saw the book joy Inc I
here and when I saw the book joy Inc I had to pick it up and learn all about it
had to pick it up and learn all about it
had to pick it up and learn all about it so for the for my audience who may not
so for the for my audience who may not
so for the for my audience who may not be super familiar with the book or
be super familiar with the book or
be super familiar with the book or mental can you give this a quick
mental can you give this a quick
mental can you give this a quick introduction to yourself sure yeah I’ll
introduction to yourself sure yeah I’ll
introduction to yourself sure yeah I’ll even define it in the context of our
even define it in the context of our
even define it in the context of our work Bellamy um so we have created a
work Bellamy um so we have created a
work Bellamy um so we have created a company here Evan that is very focused
company here Evan that is very focused
company here Evan that is very focused on what we like to call the business
on what we like to call the business
on what we like to call the business value of joy having selected a mission
value of joy having selected a mission
value of joy having selected a mission to end human suffering in the world as
to end human suffering in the world as
to end human suffering in the world as relates to technology and the way we do
relates to technology and the way we do
relates to technology and the way we do it is with this team you kind of see
it is with this team you kind of see
it is with this team you kind of see behind me here I can zoom around or pan
behind me here I can zoom around or pan
behind me here I can zoom around or pan around a little bit here we have a
around a little bit here we have a
around a little bit here we have a technology design and development team
technology design and development team
technology design and development team that actually designs and develops
that actually designs and develops
that actually designs and develops software for others that’s what our main
software for others that’s what our main
software for others that’s what our main economic engine is from designing
economic engine is from designing
economic engine is from designing software for other companies other
software for other companies other
software for other companies other people and and then essentially building
people and and then essentially building
people and and then essentially building it for them so that they can own and
it for them so that they can own and
it for them so that they can own and operate it going forward our approach
operate it going forward our approach
operate it going forward our approach the culture we built in order to do this
the culture we built in order to do this
the culture we built in order to do this is different and that is really the
is different and that is really the
is different and that is really the story that I’ve captured in the book
story that I’ve captured in the book
story that I’ve captured in the book obviously you have read what appears to
obviously you have read what appears to
obviously you have read what appears to be quite a bit of it I’m almost through
be quite a bit of it I’m almost through
be quite a bit of it I’m almost through you know I’ve got this mark here that’s
you know I’ve got this mark here that’s
you know I’ve got this mark here that’s kind of like the vitamins I’ve got maybe
kind of like the vitamins I’ve got maybe
kind of like the vitamins I’ve got maybe fifty pages left but
fifty pages left but
fifty pages left but devouring devouring I love it um y joy
devouring devouring I love it um y joy
devouring devouring I love it um y joy like of all the words in the world wide
like of all the words in the world wide
like of all the words in the world wide joy you know it’s funny we never talked
joy you know it’s funny we never talked
joy you know it’s funny we never talked about joy in the early years we had
about joy in the early years we had
about joy in the early years we had talked about ending human suffering in
talked about ending human suffering in
talked about ending human suffering in the world in as a realized technology
the world in as a realized technology
the world in as a realized technology from our beginning but then somebody had
from our beginning but then somebody had
from our beginning but then somebody had listened to me do something kind of like
listened to me do something kind of like
listened to me do something kind of like this and they sent me the simon Sinek
this and they sent me the simon Sinek
this and they sent me the simon Sinek video and start with why yeah and they
video and start with why yeah and they
video and start with why yeah and they said rich you do this and I listened to
said rich you do this and I listened to
said rich you do this and I listened to the video and I thought now i really
the video and I thought now i really
the video and I thought now i really don’t eventually get to why but i never
don’t eventually get to why but i never
don’t eventually get to why but i never start with why and when I listened to
start with why and when I listened to
start with why and when I listened to Simon his encouragement was start with
Simon his encouragement was start with
Simon his encouragement was start with why and so I thought well what is our
why and so I thought well what is our
why and so I thought well what is our why and I thought what do I want to tell
why and I thought what do I want to tell
why and I thought what do I want to tell the world what message do I want them to
the world what message do I want them to
the world what message do I want them to walk away with maybe in your words Evan
walk away with maybe in your words Evan
walk away with maybe in your words Evan what one word do I want people walking
what one word do I want people walking
what one word do I want people walking out at the door with about memo and I
out at the door with about memo and I
out at the door with about memo and I went back to our mission statement and I
went back to our mission statement and I
went back to our mission statement and I thought suffering that’s it I want
thought suffering that’s it I want
thought suffering that’s it I want everybody when they think about memo to
everybody when they think about memo to
everybody when they think about memo to think about suffering and I thought no
think about suffering and I thought no
think about suffering and I thought no no that’s not the word and so further
no that’s not the word and so further
no that’s not the word and so further down on this yellowing mission statement
down on this yellowing mission statement
down on this yellowing mission statement there was a there was a sense it said
there was a there was a sense it said
there was a there was a sense it said our goal since 2001 when we began was to
our goal since 2001 when we began was to
our goal since 2001 when we began was to return joy to one of the most unique
return joy to one of the most unique
return joy to one of the most unique endeavors mankind has ever undertaken
endeavors mankind has ever undertaken
endeavors mankind has ever undertaken the invention of software and it was
the invention of software and it was
the invention of software and it was like a light went off for me this was
like a light went off for me this was
like a light went off for me this was probably about six years or so ago and I
probably about six years or so ago and I
probably about six years or so ago and I realized that the reason I got into this
realized that the reason I got into this
realized that the reason I got into this and the reason we attract the people we
and the reason we attract the people we
and the reason we attract the people we do and the customers we do is because of
do and the customers we do is because of
do and the customers we do is because of this laser-beam focus on creating joy
this laser-beam focus on creating joy
this laser-beam focus on creating joy for the people we serve through the
for the people we serve through the
for the people we serve through the software we design and when we
software we design and when we
software we design and when we crystallized around that that why and
crystallized around that that why and
crystallized around that that why and that one word magical things begin to
that one word magical things begin to
that one word magical things begin to happen for us I love it can you explain
happen for us I love it can you explain
happen for us I love it can you explain some of those magical things yes so I
some of those magical things yes so I
some of those magical things yes so I mean obviously one of them ultimately
mean obviously one of them ultimately
mean obviously one of them ultimately ended up in the book but the book was
ended up in the book but the book was
ended up in the book but the book was kind of the next step in the journey
kind of the next step in the journey
kind of the next step in the journey then we do all these tours here
then we do all these tours here
then we do all these tours here in fact that would absolutely invite any
in fact that would absolutely invite any
in fact that would absolutely invite any of your listeners to come visit memilih
of your listeners to come visit memilih
of your listeners to come visit memilih we had over 3,000 people come through
we had over 3,000 people come through
we had over 3,000 people come through here last year alone just a visit to see
here last year alone just a visit to see
here last year alone just a visit to see spend anywhere from two hours to five
spend anywhere from two hours to five
spend anywhere from two hours to five days I’m gonna come forget my listeners
days I’m gonna come forget my listeners
days I’m gonna come forget my listeners I’m gonna come absolutely love a party
I’m gonna come absolutely love a party
I’m gonna come absolutely love a party at menlo you could have a little Evan
at menlo you could have a little Evan
at menlo you could have a little Evan Carmichael fan club group come in with
Carmichael fan club group come in with
Carmichael fan club group come in with you but so this next group came in and
you but so this next group came in and
you but so this next group came in and and I was going to start that day with
and I was going to start that day with
and I was going to start that day with why and and and I was going to talk
why and and and I was going to talk
why and and and I was going to talk about joy and I never started it to her
about joy and I never started it to her
about joy and I never started it to her like that before so I said to him I said
like that before so I said to him I said
like that before so I said to him I said welcome to memo you’ve come to this
welcome to memo you’ve come to this
welcome to memo you’ve come to this place that is very intentionally created
place that is very intentionally created
place that is very intentionally created a culture focused on the business value
a culture focused on the business value
a culture focused on the business value of joy and it just stopped him dead in
of joy and it just stopped him dead in
of joy and it just stopped him dead in their tracks they didn’t even know what
their tracks they didn’t even know what
their tracks they didn’t even know what to say they were like what are you
to say they were like what are you
to say they were like what are you talking about work we’re here to learn
talking about work we’re here to learn
talking about work we’re here to learn about software designer develop why are
about software designer develop why are
about software designer develop why are you talking about joy and I pointed back
you talking about joy and I pointed back
you talking about joy and I pointed back to this room of people here and I said
to this room of people here and I said
to this room of people here and I said well look at the people here pretend
well look at the people here pretend
well look at the people here pretend half of them have joy and the other half
half of them have joy and the other half
half of them have joy and the other half don’t which half what you aren’t working
don’t which half what you aren’t working
don’t which half what you aren’t working on your project and they said well we
on your project and they said well we
on your project and they said well we want the joyful half and I said why what
want the joyful half and I said why what
want the joyful half and I said why what difference would it make and why would
difference would it make and why would
difference would it make and why would you care and they said well they’d be
you care and they said well they’d be
you care and they said well they’d be more productive they produce better
more productive they produce better
more productive they produce better results they care more about the outcome
results they care more about the outcome
results they care more about the outcome they produce higher quality I’m like
they produce higher quality I’m like
they produce higher quality I’m like okay see you with me there is in fact
okay see you with me there is in fact
okay see you with me there is in fact tangible business value to joy and just
tangible business value to joy and just
tangible business value to joy and just by changing that conversation around
by changing that conversation around
by changing that conversation around that one word suddenly this flood of
that one word suddenly this flood of
that one word suddenly this flood of desire need want started flowing out of
desire need want started flowing out of
desire need want started flowing out of the people that were coming here and
the people that were coming here and
the people that were coming here and they wanted to learn more the tour
they wanted to learn more the tour
they wanted to learn more the tour started tipping up the people started
started tipping up the people started
started tipping up the people started staying longer my speaking engagements
staying longer my speaking engagements
staying longer my speaking engagements got more interesting I was getting tears
got more interesting I was getting tears
got more interesting I was getting tears sometimes when I would speak from people
sometimes when I would speak from people
sometimes when I would speak from people who hadn’t heard a message like this
who hadn’t heard a message like this
who hadn’t heard a message like this before and that’s really where suddenly
before and that’s really where suddenly
before and that’s really where suddenly the book emerged when somebody at a
the book emerged when somebody at a
the book emerged when somebody at a conference that you have to write a book
conference that you have to write a book
conference that you have to write a book about this stuff and once the book hit
about this stuff and once the book hit
about this stuff and once the book hit the tour’s started going into the
the tour’s started going into the
the tour’s started going into the thousands per year and that’s kind of
thousands per year and that’s kind of
thousands per year and that’s kind of where we’re at now we we we host about
where we’re at now we we we host about
where we’re at now we we we host about 3,000 people a year come through our
3,000 people a year come through our
3,000 people a year come through our doors I love
doors I love
doors I love I love it now you’ve applied joy to more
I love it now you’ve applied joy to more
I love it now you’ve applied joy to more than just a marketing slogan it’s kind
than just a marketing slogan it’s kind
than just a marketing slogan it’s kind of become a way of being for the
of become a way of being for the
of become a way of being for the business and I you know I’m wondering
business and I you know I’m wondering
business and I you know I’m wondering has joy always been a part of you look
has joy always been a part of you look
has joy always been a part of you look personally growing up are you joyful was
personally growing up are you joyful was
personally growing up are you joyful was it something that your parents taught
it something that your parents taught
it something that your parents taught you to be like where did this thing come
you to be like where did this thing come
you to be like where did this thing come from yeah you know I know I tell the
from yeah you know I know I tell the
from yeah you know I know I tell the story in the book of when I first laid
story in the book of when I first laid
story in the book of when I first laid hands on a computer back when I was 13
hands on a computer back when I was 13
hands on a computer back when I was 13 and I I used to just start there I say
and I I used to just start there I say
and I I used to just start there I say hey look I typed a two-line program into
hey look I typed a two-line program into
hey look I typed a two-line program into a computer and I was just a kid and I
a computer and I was just a kid and I
a computer and I was just a kid and I fell in love with this idea of
fell in love with this idea of
fell in love with this idea of developing software and then I realized
developing software and then I realized
developing software and then I realized what I really thought about it that the
what I really thought about it that the
what I really thought about it that the joy for me actually started in a
joy for me actually started in a
joy for me actually started in a slightly earlier age than that I went
slightly earlier age than that I went
slightly earlier age than that I went back to when I was about 10 years old
back to when I was about 10 years old
back to when I was about 10 years old and I remember my parents bringing home
and I remember my parents bringing home
and I remember my parents bringing home what would have been then and ikea
what would have been then and ikea
what would have been then and ikea bookshelf to put together but of course
bookshelf to put together but of course
bookshelf to put together but of course I kid and exist back in 1967 so they
I kid and exist back in 1967 so they
I kid and exist back in 1967 so they left for dinner that night in a movie
left for dinner that night in a movie
left for dinner that night in a movie and I was left at home and i was 10 i
and I was left at home and i was 10 i
and I was left at home and i was 10 i could be on my own and it was this
could be on my own and it was this
could be on my own and it was this bookshelf out in the garage and I
bookshelf out in the garage and I
bookshelf out in the garage and I thought to myself I’m gonna put that
thought to myself I’m gonna put that
thought to myself I’m gonna put that bookshelf together so I went out on the
bookshelf together so I went out on the
bookshelf together so I went out on the garage in this 10 year old kid pulls out
garage in this 10 year old kid pulls out
garage in this 10 year old kid pulls out the 50 pieces of wooden a 200 little
the 50 pieces of wooden a 200 little
the 50 pieces of wooden a 200 little nuts bolts and screws and I build the
nuts bolts and screws and I build the
nuts bolts and screws and I build the thing and then I get done and I’m
thing and then I get done and I’m
thing and then I get done and I’m thinking well that was stupid I built it
thinking well that was stupid I built it
thinking well that was stupid I built it in the garage they wanted the living so
in the garage they wanted the living so
in the garage they wanted the living so I literally inched this thing out of the
I literally inched this thing out of the
I literally inched this thing out of the garage down the sidewalk into the family
garage down the sidewalk into the family
garage down the sidewalk into the family room up through the Atheneum the kitchen
room up through the Atheneum the kitchen
room up through the Atheneum the kitchen I pushed it into place I set up my dad’s
I pushed it into place I set up my dad’s
I pushed it into place I set up my dad’s books my mom’s knickknacks the stereo
books my mom’s knickknacks the stereo
books my mom’s knickknacks the stereo when they walked in that night day after
when they walked in that night day after
when they walked in that night day after the movie the music was playing my mom
the movie the music was playing my mom
the movie the music was playing my mom teared up my dad was blown away they
teared up my dad was blown away they
teared up my dad was blown away they were like how did you do this this is
were like how did you do this this is
were like how did you do this this is amazing and I realized in that story
amazing and I realized in that story
amazing and I realized in that story oven that’s joy serving others that the
oven that’s joy serving others that the
oven that’s joy serving others that the idea of the work of our hearts our hands
idea of the work of our hearts our hands
idea of the work of our hearts our hands on our minds to delight others with what
on our minds to delight others with what
on our minds to delight others with what we did is really the heart of the
we did is really the heart of the
we did is really the heart of the engineer this is why we do what we do
engineer this is why we do what we do
engineer this is why we do what we do it’s not a theoretical activity it’s not
it’s not a theoretical activity it’s not
it’s not a theoretical activity it’s not I like doing technology simply because
I like doing technology simply because
I like doing technology simply because I like doing technology ultimately what
I like doing technology ultimately what
I like doing technology ultimately what an engineer wants more than anything
an engineer wants more than anything
an engineer wants more than anything else is for somebody later who you’re
else is for somebody later who you’re
else is for somebody later who you’re serving with your work come back to you
serving with your work come back to you
serving with your work come back to you and say I love what you did you made my
and say I love what you did you made my
and say I love what you did you made my life better with what you did and when
life better with what you did and when
life better with what you did and when you tap into that part of the heart of
you tap into that part of the heart of
you tap into that part of the heart of an engineer you get remarkable results
an engineer you get remarkable results
an engineer you get remarkable results from the team because too often in our
from the team because too often in our
from the team because too often in our industry engineers work on projects that
industry engineers work on projects that
industry engineers work on projects that never see the light of day they’re
never see the light of day they’re
never see the light of day they’re cancelled before they ship it they do
cancelled before they ship it they do
cancelled before they ship it they do ship they have quality problems if they
ship they have quality problems if they
ship they have quality problems if they get out into the world people hate them
get out into the world people hate them
get out into the world people hate them we call the people who we serve stupid
we call the people who we serve stupid
we call the people who we serve stupid users than we’d like dummies books for
users than we’d like dummies books for
users than we’d like dummies books for them this is this is anti joy right this
them this is this is anti joy right this
them this is this is anti joy right this is you know that and so everybody starts
is you know that and so everybody starts
is you know that and so everybody starts trading on other stuff title office pay
trading on other stuff title office pay
trading on other stuff title office pay you know goofy fun ping-pong tables and
you know goofy fun ping-pong tables and
you know goofy fun ping-pong tables and foosball tables no no no this is about
foosball tables no no no this is about
foosball tables no no no this is about hard work producing great results and
hard work producing great results and
hard work producing great results and serving others and that’s really where
serving others and that’s really where
serving others and that’s really where the joint came from for me and so yes
the joint came from for me and so yes
the joint came from for me and so yes the team calls me the the chief optimist
the team calls me the the chief optimist
the team calls me the the chief optimist is that as well as the chief story color
is that as well as the chief story color
is that as well as the chief story color I love it and so how do you I mean it
I love it and so how do you I mean it
I love it and so how do you I mean it makes sense in the marketing side right
makes sense in the marketing side right
makes sense in the marketing side right you have a book joy hankie doing the
you have a book joy hankie doing the
you have a book joy hankie doing the tours but but it’s obvious we’re meeting
tours but but it’s obvious we’re meeting
tours but but it’s obvious we’re meeting the book that you’ve just fully adopted
the book that you’ve just fully adopted
the book that you’ve just fully adopted this as part of your culture and can you
this as part of your culture and can you
this as part of your culture and can you talk about some of the things that you
talk about some of the things that you
talk about some of the things that you do to incorporate joy for your team and
do to incorporate joy for your team and
do to incorporate joy for your team and just as a part of your operations as a
just as a part of your operations as a
just as a part of your operations as a business yeah um I’m going to just turn
business yeah um I’m going to just turn
business yeah um I’m going to just turn around for sale on a sea of one element
around for sale on a sea of one element
around for sale on a sea of one element that is actually present in the room I
that is actually present in the room I
that is actually present in the room I met people showed you hear a joke with
met people showed you hear a joke with
met people showed you hear a joke with the babies around send the video sorry
the babies around send the video sorry
the babies around send the video sorry about that oven that’s a little weird I
about that oven that’s a little weird I
about that oven that’s a little weird I know to go offline there but so um one
know to go offline there but so um one
know to go offline there but so um one of the weird things you do that gets us
of the weird things you do that gets us
of the weird things you do that gets us a lot of attention is we allow new
a lot of attention is we allow new
a lot of attention is we allow new parents to bring their babies in to work
parents to bring their babies in to work
parents to bring their babies in to work right we happen to have one in today
right we happen to have one in today
right we happen to have one in today little loose
little loose
little loose see as John Martin second child has been
see as John Martin second child has been
see as John Martin second child has been here we’ve had ten menlo babies in the
here we’ve had ten menlo babies in the
here we’ve had ten menlo babies in the last eight years we let the new moms or
last eight years we let the new moms or
last eight years we let the new moms or dads bring the baby and all day every
dads bring the baby and all day every
dads bring the baby and all day every day we don’t have a daycare that’s not a
day we don’t have a daycare that’s not a
day we don’t have a daycare that’s not a big care facility the parents are
big care facility the parents are
big care facility the parents are actually with the child the whole day
actually with the child the whole day
actually with the child the whole day and the human energy that is the room is
and the human energy that is the room is
and the human energy that is the room is is actually quite remarkable and so
is actually quite remarkable and so
is actually quite remarkable and so there’s one element of recognizing we
there’s one element of recognizing we
there’s one element of recognizing we have full lives we’re not just whenever
have full lives we’re not just whenever
have full lives we’re not just whenever work lives and home lies you don’t have
work lives and home lies you don’t have
work lives and home lies you don’t have work colleagues and family we have one
work colleagues and family we have one
work colleagues and family we have one life we have one community that we’re
life we have one community that we’re
life we have one community that we’re part of why do we continually try and
part of why do we continually try and
part of why do we continually try and deny that we don’t have families we try
deny that we don’t have families we try
deny that we don’t have families we try and pretend we can be this perfect
and pretend we can be this perfect
and pretend we can be this perfect unencumbered individual while we’re at
unencumbered individual while we’re at
unencumbered individual while we’re at work and we deal with all the other
work and we deal with all the other
work and we deal with all the other stuff when we’re at home and so in our
stuff when we’re at home and so in our
stuff when we’re at home and so in our view we said now let’s let’s run this
view we said now let’s let’s run this
view we said now let’s let’s run this experiment so that was a typical memo
experiment so that was a typical memo
experiment so that was a typical memo experiment eight years ago of saying
experiment eight years ago of saying
experiment eight years ago of saying let’s just try this and see what happens
let’s just try this and see what happens
let’s just try this and see what happens we didn’t know what would happen we
we didn’t know what would happen we
we didn’t know what would happen we didn’t know if it would work but ten men
didn’t know if it would work but ten men
didn’t know if it would work but ten men will baby later it’s working so there
will baby later it’s working so there
will baby later it’s working so there there it is the men the baby one of the
there it is the men the baby one of the
there it is the men the baby one of the memo babies this is John Martin and John
memo babies this is John Martin and John
memo babies this is John Martin and John Lucy this is just waking up busy oh just
Lucy this is just waking up busy oh just
Lucy this is just waking up busy oh just going to sleep Lucy’s just all asleep I
going to sleep Lucy’s just all asleep I
going to sleep Lucy’s just all asleep I love it we doing so we haven’t had a
love it we doing so we haven’t had a
love it we doing so we haven’t had a memo baby on a google hangout yeah there
memo baby on a google hangout yeah there
memo baby on a google hangout yeah there we go that’s the first time now you
we go that’s the first time now you
we go that’s the first time now you another kind of strange policy that I
another kind of strange policy that I
another kind of strange policy that I know you guys have is pairing we have
know you guys have is pairing we have
know you guys have is pairing we have partner all people up together and so I
partner all people up together and so I
partner all people up together and so I assume you know that gentleman is paired
assume you know that gentleman is paired
assume you know that gentleman is paired with somebody working on some project
with somebody working on some project
with somebody working on some project can you do not just bear with his
can you do not just bear with his
can you do not just bear with his daughter he’s paired with another
daughter he’s paired with another
daughter he’s paired with another programmer you so bright that I mean
programmer you so bright that I mean
programmer you so bright that I mean obviously uh uh first time I read unlike
obviously uh uh first time I read unlike
obviously uh uh first time I read unlike what that’s really different yeah can
what that’s really different yeah can
what that’s really different yeah can you talk about I mean you explained in
you talk about I mean you explained in
you talk about I mean you explained in the book but can you give like a high
the book but can you give like a high
the book but can you give like a high level of you why you do that and how
level of you why you do that and how
level of you why you do that and how that contributes to joy for your team so
that contributes to joy for your team so
that contributes to joy for your team so there’s a lot of people who don’t go
there’s a lot of people who don’t go
there’s a lot of people who don’t go into our profession because they think
into our profession because they think
into our profession because they think it’s going to be a very lonely isolated
it’s going to be a very lonely isolated
it’s going to be a very lonely isolated profession and it
profession and it
profession and it that is you think about the typical tech
that is you think about the typical tech
that is you think about the typical tech company that is the sea of cubicles
company that is the sea of cubicles
company that is the sea of cubicles darkened cubicles everybody with earbuds
darkened cubicles everybody with earbuds
darkened cubicles everybody with earbuds interior silently clicking away on
interior silently clicking away on
interior silently clicking away on keyboards all day long they are isolated
keyboards all day long they are isolated
keyboards all day long they are isolated from other human beings they don’t want
from other human beings they don’t want
from other human beings they don’t want to be bothered so leave me alone so they
to be bothered so leave me alone so they
to be bothered so leave me alone so they come in in the off hours so nobody will
come in in the off hours so nobody will
come in in the off hours so nobody will be around and yet they create problems
be around and yet they create problems
be around and yet they create problems and they don’t have help solving those
and they don’t have help solving those
and they don’t have help solving those problems they have to do it in their own
problems they have to do it in their own
problems they have to do it in their own heads and their own minds and it gets
heads and their own minds and it gets
heads and their own minds and it gets very frustrating for a long period of
very frustrating for a long period of
very frustrating for a long period of time by putting two people together they
time by putting two people together they
time by putting two people together they solve problems faster they take
solve problems faster they take
solve problems faster they take advantage of what both people know so
advantage of what both people know so
advantage of what both people know so they can integrate their combined
they can integrate their combined
they can integrate their combined knowledge together they challenge each
knowledge together they challenge each
knowledge together they challenge each other by pointing to the screen and one
other by pointing to the screen and one
other by pointing to the screen and one types and the other is watching one
types and the other is watching one
types and the other is watching one talks about what he’s thinking about the
talks about what he’s thinking about the
talks about what he’s thinking about the other ones challenging them on their
other ones challenging them on their
other ones challenging them on their thinking and this is why this is a noisy
thinking and this is why this is a noisy
thinking and this is why this is a noisy environment here because we want people
environment here because we want people
environment here because we want people to overhear the ideas of others in fact
to overhear the ideas of others in fact
to overhear the ideas of others in fact in our world we ban earbuds you can’t
in our world we ban earbuds you can’t
in our world we ban earbuds you can’t heavier bus while you’re working which
heavier bus while you’re working which
heavier bus while you’re working which is very unusual for a tech firm and so
is very unusual for a tech firm and so
is very unusual for a tech firm and so not only do they work in pairs but we
not only do they work in pairs but we
not only do they work in pairs but we assign the pairs and we switch them
assign the pairs and we switch them
assign the pairs and we switch them every five working days because one of
every five working days because one of
every five working days because one of the biggest challenges in software and
the biggest challenges in software and
the biggest challenges in software and it’s true in a lot of other teams as
it’s true in a lot of other teams as
it’s true in a lot of other teams as well is a tower of knowledge problem the
well is a tower of knowledge problem the
well is a tower of knowledge problem the one person on the team who knows
one person on the team who knows
one person on the team who knows everything and nobody else knows what
everything and nobody else knows what
everything and nobody else knows what they know and I can tell you for a long
they know and I can tell you for a long
they know and I can tell you for a long time at our feels secure tower feels
time at our feels secure tower feels
time at our feels secure tower feels safe if nobody knows what I know I’m
safe if nobody knows what I know I’m
safe if nobody knows what I know I’m valuable and they can’t fire me but one
valuable and they can’t fire me but one
valuable and they can’t fire me but one day they wake up and they realize that
day they wake up and they realize that
day they wake up and they realize that towers become a prison from which it
towers become a prison from which it
towers become a prison from which it cannot escape because they can’t go work
cannot escape because they can’t go work
cannot escape because they can’t go work on new stuff they can’t leave their
on new stuff they can’t leave their
on new stuff they can’t leave their power and go work in a different power
power and go work in a different power
power and go work in a different power they can’t even quit their job because
they can’t even quit their job because
they can’t even quit their job because the next employer will say oh you’re an
the next employer will say oh you’re an
the next employer will say oh you’re an Oracle nine point one point one point
Oracle nine point one point one point
Oracle nine point one point one point two service pack three expert that’s
two service pack three expert that’s
two service pack three expert that’s awesome we need one of those hours just
awesome we need one of those hours just
awesome we need one of those hours just quit and you don’t of course they guys I
quit and you don’t of course they guys I
quit and you don’t of course they guys I don’t want to do that anymore I want to
don’t want to do that anymore I want to
don’t want to do that anymore I want to learn new stuff I want to build an
learn new stuff I want to build an
learn new stuff I want to build an Android app I want to work on iOS I I
Android app I want to work on iOS I I
Android app I want to work on iOS I I want to work in a different feel and so
want to work in a different feel and so
want to work in a different feel and so there’s a whole bunch of reasons we do
there’s a whole bunch of reasons we do
there’s a whole bunch of reasons we do this but I think the main thing is what
this but I think the main thing is what
this but I think the main thing is what Deming said wait
Deming said wait
Deming said wait when all anyone asks for is a chance to
when all anyone asks for is a chance to
when all anyone asks for is a chance to work with pride to do good work to get
work with pride to do good work to get
work with pride to do good work to get good work out into the field and what we
good work out into the field and what we
good work out into the field and what we have found is that by pairing people
have found is that by pairing people
have found is that by pairing people together and switching the pair’s you
together and switching the pair’s you
together and switching the pair’s you get much higher quality much faster you
get much higher quality much faster you
get much higher quality much faster you get problems solved in a much deeper way
get problems solved in a much deeper way
get problems solved in a much deeper way than you do buy individual towers
than you do buy individual towers
than you do buy individual towers working up yeah and just to maybe
working up yeah and just to maybe
working up yeah and just to maybe explain a little bit more for the
explain a little bit more for the
explain a little bit more for the readers for the viewers there are you
readers for the viewers there are you
readers for the viewers there are you guys are mostly a software development
guys are mostly a software development
guys are mostly a software development company seen how you pair people up will
company seen how you pair people up will
company seen how you pair people up will be two programmers to one computer right
be two programmers to one computer right
be two programmers to one computer right which for most people seems like a crazy
which for most people seems like a crazy
which for most people seems like a crazy way to operate but that’s how they do it
way to operate but that’s how they do it
way to operate but that’s how they do it and the question that i had in leading
and the question that i had in leading
and the question that i had in leading that so we’re gonna go look at it while
that so we’re gonna go look at it while
that so we’re gonna go look at it while we’re talking okay laptop out there and
we’re talking okay laptop out there and
we’re talking okay laptop out there and we can go look at another and you’ll
we can go look at another and you’ll
we can go look at another and you’ll hear a bit of the noise so here’s the
hear a bit of the noise so here’s the
hear a bit of the noise so here’s the drake team here and you can see others
drake team here and you can see others
drake team here and you can see others the great look at they’re all waving at
the great look at they’re all waving at
the great look at they’re all waving at you so here’s Eric and we’ll hear
you so here’s Eric and we’ll hear
you so here’s Eric and we’ll hear working together no guys stop working we
working together no guys stop working we
working together no guys stop working we want very much yeah so yeah so this is
want very much yeah so yeah so this is
want very much yeah so yeah so this is what it looks like to can you see it am
what it looks like to can you see it am
what it looks like to can you see it am i yeah yeah we got two people one
i yeah yeah we got two people one
i yeah yeah we got two people one keyboard that’s it yep sharing the
keyboard that’s it yep sharing the
keyboard that’s it yep sharing the keyboard back and forth sharing a mouse
keyboard back and forth sharing a mouse
keyboard back and forth sharing a mouse Will’s got the keyboard and mouse right
Will’s got the keyboard and mouse right
Will’s got the keyboard and mouse right now Erica’s is watching what he’s doing
now Erica’s is watching what he’s doing
now Erica’s is watching what he’s doing they’re talking about it and you can
they’re talking about it and you can
they’re talking about it and you can also see that they sit in very close
also see that they sit in very close
also see that they sit in very close proximity to one another right this this
proximity to one another right this this
proximity to one another right this this is how they choose to sit because it’s
is how they choose to sit because it’s
is how they choose to sit because it’s part of the other part of joy here at
part of the other part of joy here at
part of the other part of joy here at Menlo is the way the space is set up and
Menlo is the way the space is set up and
Menlo is the way the space is set up and you can see you’re not giving you a
you can see you’re not giving you a
you can see you’re not giving you a little bit of a panoramic view of menlo
little bit of a panoramic view of menlo
little bit of a panoramic view of menlo here yeah this this space is set up by
here yeah this this space is set up by
here yeah this this space is set up by the team there are no facilities people
the team there are no facilities people
the team there are no facilities people there’s no permission to ask there’s no
there’s no permission to ask there’s no
there’s no permission to ask there’s no space police to check in with the team
space police to check in with the team
space police to check in with the team forms a space however they choose so the
forms a space however they choose so the
forms a space however they choose so the fact that they were sitting shoulder to
fact that they were sitting shoulder to
fact that they were sitting shoulder to shoulder tables next to one another is
shoulder tables next to one another is
shoulder tables next to one another is their choice nobody told them they had
their choice nobody told them they had
their choice nobody told them they had to do that that’s the way they prefer or
to do that that’s the way they prefer or
to do that that’s the way they prefer or I love it now a question
I love it now a question
I love it now a question had in reading about that process if you
had in reading about that process if you
had in reading about that process if you have eric and will working together and
have eric and will working together and
have eric and will working together and then work together for five days and
then work together for five days and
then work together for five days and then you switch it up you know they
then you switch it up you know they
then you switch it up you know they haven’t finished their task does one of
haven’t finished their task does one of
haven’t finished their task does one of them continue like eric keeps working on
them continue like eric keeps working on
them continue like eric keeps working on and then a new person comes in there’s
and then a new person comes in there’s
and then a new person comes in there’s that power typically works yeah so sort
that power typically works yeah so sort
that power typically works yeah so sort of over here on the wall or display that
of over here on the wall or display that
of over here on the wall or display that you see along the wall we have all these
you see along the wall we have all these
you see along the wall we have all these index cards posted and we bring projects
index cards posted and we bring projects
index cards posted and we bring projects down into pretty tiny task to our task
down into pretty tiny task to our task
down into pretty tiny task to our task for our past eight our test 16 and so on
for our past eight our test 16 and so on
for our past eight our test 16 and so on so the odds that they’re going to finish
so the odds that they’re going to finish
so the odds that they’re going to finish their tests are actually pretty high
their tests are actually pretty high
their tests are actually pretty high okay just break a project down into
okay just break a project down into
okay just break a project down into smaller and smaller pieces so hopefully
smaller and smaller pieces so hopefully
smaller and smaller pieces so hopefully within the five day context they’ve
within the five day context they’ve
within the five day context they’ve gotten a number of things done not just
gotten a number of things done not just
gotten a number of things done not just one but as you say there may still be
one but as you say there may still be
one but as you say there may still be that last pass they were working on a
that last pass they were working on a
that last pass they were working on a Friday together and they just didn’t get
Friday together and they just didn’t get
Friday together and they just didn’t get it done now the question is who’s going
it done now the question is who’s going
it done now the question is who’s going to carry that on it may well be just as
to carry that on it may well be just as
to carry that on it may well be just as you described it may be that Eric is now
you described it may be that Eric is now
you described it may be that Eric is now paired with Ted and Eric and Ted are
paired with Ted and Eric and Ted are
paired with Ted and Eric and Ted are going to carry it on but it’s not wholly
going to carry it on but it’s not wholly
going to carry it on but it’s not wholly unusual for a chiral e new pair to pick
unusual for a chiral e new pair to pick
unusual for a chiral e new pair to pick up the work and carry it forward from
up the work and carry it forward from
up the work and carry it forward from there which seems a little
there which seems a little
there which seems a little counterintuitive maybe even unproductive
counterintuitive maybe even unproductive
counterintuitive maybe even unproductive but what happens in that case is the new
but what happens in that case is the new
but what happens in that case is the new pair starts asking the old pair a bunch
pair starts asking the old pair a bunch
pair starts asking the old pair a bunch of questions now remember they’re all
of questions now remember they’re all
of questions now remember they’re all sitting close to one another so it’s not
sitting close to one another so it’s not
sitting close to one another so it’s not like we have to have a meeting and get a
like we have to have a meeting and get a
like we have to have a meeting and get a conference room and everything you just
conference room and everything you just
conference room and everything you just say you know hey we’ll hey Eric we’re
say you know hey we’ll hey Eric we’re
say you know hey we’ll hey Eric we’re picking up the work you did here and
picking up the work you did here and
picking up the work you did here and we’re a little confused about this part
we’re a little confused about this part
we’re a little confused about this part of it could you just swing your chairs
of it could you just swing your chairs
of it could you just swing your chairs around explain it to us and what’s
around explain it to us and what’s
around explain it to us and what’s interesting is in that exchange of
interesting is in that exchange of
interesting is in that exchange of information and knowledge transfer
information and knowledge transfer
information and knowledge transfer you’re getting a you’re getting an
you’re getting a you’re getting an
you’re getting a you’re getting an improvement in quality and
improvement in quality and
improvement in quality and maintainability of the code because if
maintainability of the code because if
maintainability of the code because if if Ted and Scott can’t figure out the
if Ted and Scott can’t figure out the
if Ted and Scott can’t figure out the code that Eric and we’ll put together
code that Eric and we’ll put together
code that Eric and we’ll put together this week before that’s an indication
this week before that’s an indication
this week before that’s an indication and we might have trouble supporting
and we might have trouble supporting
and we might have trouble supporting that code a year from now hmm so there’s
that code a year from now hmm so there’s
that code a year from now hmm so there’s kind of micro payments we make along the
kind of micro payments we make along the
kind of micro payments we make along the way that feel unproductive
way that feel unproductive
way that feel unproductive but the speed the quality the
but the speed the quality the
but the speed the quality the maintainability going forward literally
maintainability going forward literally
maintainability going forward literally outperforms standard software
outperforms standard software
outperforms standard software development by an order of magnitude
development by an order of magnitude
development by an order of magnitude very cool I’m very different I love that
very cool I’m very different I love that
very cool I’m very different I love that you flash the wall with all the the
you flash the wall with all the the
you flash the wall with all the the notes and and you explaining the book
notes and and you explaining the book
notes and and you explaining the book that everything is written on an index
that everything is written on an index
that everything is written on an index card you put up on the wall which again
card you put up on the wall which again
card you put up on the wall which again seems very backwards for a technology
seems very backwards for a technology
seems very backwards for a technology company using like paper and pen and put
company using like paper and pen and put
company using like paper and pen and put it on the wall but I guess that’s also
it on the wall but I guess that’s also
it on the wall but I guess that’s also let some more effective and more joyful
let some more effective and more joyful
let some more effective and more joyful experience well the people who come to
experience well the people who come to
experience well the people who come to visit see that may call us the Amish of
visit see that may call us the Amish of
visit see that may call us the Amish of software development and they ask us
software development and they ask us
software development and they ask us they say which your tech firm why don’t
they say which your tech firm why don’t
they say which your tech firm why don’t you use software for this and our answer
you use software for this and our answer
you use software for this and our answer is pretty simple we choose tools we
is pretty simple we choose tools we
is pretty simple we choose tools we believe work better for humans you very
believe work better for humans you very
believe work better for humans you very visual tactile creatures so using
visual tactile creatures so using
visual tactile creatures so using handwritten index cards is is actually
handwritten index cards is is actually
handwritten index cards is is actually really compelling for people it’s sort
really compelling for people it’s sort
really compelling for people it’s sort of like the Montessori School has taught
of like the Montessori School has taught
of like the Montessori School has taught us once upon a time that you know we
us once upon a time that you know we
us once upon a time that you know we learn a lot through the nerving and
learn a lot through the nerving and
learn a lot through the nerving and things and our fingertips we learn a lot
things and our fingertips we learn a lot
things and our fingertips we learn a lot through sound through vision to site
through sound through vision to site
through sound through vision to site through spatial orientation that sort of
through spatial orientation that sort of
through spatial orientation that sort of thing so there are many many companies
thing so there are many many companies
thing so there are many many companies that use visualization I mean the whole
that use visualization I mean the whole
that use visualization I mean the whole lean industry tries to focus on
lean industry tries to focus on
lean industry tries to focus on visualization so there’s a component of
visualization so there’s a component of
visualization so there’s a component of industry that looks at us and goes yeah
industry that looks at us and goes yeah
industry that looks at us and goes yeah of course but the software industry is
of course but the software industry is
of course but the software industry is so enamored always with its little
so enamored always with its little
so enamored always with its little high-tech tools that it thinks that’s
high-tech tools that it thinks that’s
high-tech tools that it thinks that’s the best answer for all problems we tend
the best answer for all problems we tend
the best answer for all problems we tend to be a little more cynical about
to be a little more cynical about
to be a little more cynical about software and we say no we’re not going
software and we say no we’re not going
software and we say no we’re not going to just assume a high-tech solution is
to just assume a high-tech solution is
to just assume a high-tech solution is the best one we’re going to explore
the best one we’re going to explore
the best one we’re going to explore other opportunities we’ve been doing
other opportunities we’ve been doing
other opportunities we’ve been doing software development with handwritten
software development with handwritten
software development with handwritten index cards pin pushpin to a wall for 14
index cards pin pushpin to a wall for 14
index cards pin pushpin to a wall for 14 years I love it and I think it takes a
years I love it and I think it takes a
years I love it and I think it takes a lot of courage to be in the business of
lot of courage to be in the business of
lot of courage to be in the business of software development and not default to
software development and not default to
software development and not default to software as a tool when it’s not the
software as a tool when it’s not the
software as a tool when it’s not the best tool to use we had one tour guests
best tool to use we had one tour guests
best tool to use we had one tour guests you looked at me and he saw this me said
you looked at me and he saw this me said
you looked at me and he saw this me said okay that confirms that I would never
okay that confirms that I would never
okay that confirms that I would never use you for a software project based on
use you for a software project based on
use you for a software project based on what you’ve just shown and and the
what you’ve just shown and and the
what you’ve just shown and and the thought bubble over my head I didn’t say
thought bubble over my head I didn’t say
thought bubble over my head I didn’t say because I didn’t want to be rude was
because I didn’t want to be rude was
because I didn’t want to be rude was awesome yeah exactly see each other
awesome yeah exactly see each other
awesome yeah exactly see each other again
again
again you you saved both of us a lot of
you you saved both of us a lot of
you you saved both of us a lot of trouble by making that conclusion
trouble by making that conclusion
trouble by making that conclusion because if you think that’s what’s going
because if you think that’s what’s going
because if you think that’s what’s going to make software projects go better is
to make software projects go better is
to make software projects go better is because we put your project management
because we put your project management
because we put your project management artifacts inside of Microsoft Project
artifacts inside of Microsoft Project
artifacts inside of Microsoft Project we’re doomed from the start right they
we’re doomed from the start right they
we’re doomed from the start right they self eliminated yep you want people to
self eliminated yep you want people to
self eliminated yep you want people to visit your your your factory there and
visit your your your factory there and
visit your your your factory there and see if they love it or they hate it yep
see if they love it or they hate it yep
see if they love it or they hate it yep yeah we did one two three drawers a day
yeah we did one two three drawers a day
yeah we did one two three drawers a day now awesome I want to be conscious at
now awesome I want to be conscious at
now awesome I want to be conscious at the time I have two quick questions for
the time I have two quick questions for
the time I have two quick questions for you I’m 1 i’m curious about some
you I’m 1 i’m curious about some
you I’m 1 i’m curious about some decisions that you’ve had to make that
decisions that you’ve had to make that
decisions that you’ve had to make that may have made sense you know on paper
may have made sense you know on paper
may have made sense you know on paper financially logically but was against
financially logically but was against
financially logically but was against joy and if you had a kind of an example
joy and if you had a kind of an example
joy and if you had a kind of an example of that like making tough decisions
of that like making tough decisions
of that like making tough decisions based on your your core value yeah so i
based on your your core value yeah so i
based on your your core value yeah so i think the hardest one is when a client
think the hardest one is when a client
think the hardest one is when a client relationship begins to sour because they
relationship begins to sour because they
relationship begins to sour because they really don’t ultimately play well you
really don’t ultimately play well you
really don’t ultimately play well you know i don’t know how else to describe
know i don’t know how else to describe
know i don’t know how else to describe it but we have a very we have a very
it but we have a very we have a very
it but we have a very we have a very particular way of engaging our clients
particular way of engaging our clients
particular way of engaging our clients and projects here they have to
and projects here they have to
and projects here they have to participate and if they start to treat
participate and if they start to treat
participate and if they start to treat us like a standard I tea vendor of what
us like a standard I tea vendor of what
us like a standard I tea vendor of what we told you what we needed we don’t know
we told you what we needed we don’t know
we told you what we needed we don’t know why we need to connect with you every
why we need to connect with you every
why we need to connect with you every five days then quite frankly we have to
five days then quite frankly we have to
five days then quite frankly we have to let that client go and that is hard to
let that client go and that is hard to
let that client go and that is hard to do because we’re running a business here
do because we’re running a business here
do because we’re running a business here the main economic engine is servicing
the main economic engine is servicing
the main economic engine is servicing our clients and if we decide we’re going
our clients and if we decide we’re going
our clients and if we decide we’re going to let a client go we’re choosing lower
to let a client go we’re choosing lower
to let a client go we’re choosing lower revenue which might mean less people
revenue which might mean less people
revenue which might mean less people might mean less prophets it might mean
might mean less prophets it might mean
might mean less prophets it might mean smaller paychecks for some of us and so
smaller paychecks for some of us and so
smaller paychecks for some of us and so those are hard decisions because now
those are hard decisions because now
those are hard decisions because now you’re you’re faced with the reality of
you’re you’re faced with the reality of
you’re you’re faced with the reality of joy and that is that you have to make
joy and that is that you have to make
joy and that is that you have to make trade-offs you don’t get to have joy
trade-offs you don’t get to have joy
trade-offs you don’t get to have joy without making trade-offs in other areas
without making trade-offs in other areas
without making trade-offs in other areas and those are always hard decisions I I
and those are always hard decisions I I
and those are always hard decisions I I always say that you know when you put a
always say that you know when you put a
always say that you know when you put a pile of money in front of entrepreneurs
pile of money in front of entrepreneurs
pile of money in front of entrepreneurs they start salivating you know and
they start salivating you know and
they start salivating you know and you know but the devil always comes Gary
you know but the devil always comes Gary
you know but the devil always comes Gary in cash and so we have to we have to
in cash and so we have to we have to
in cash and so we have to we have to guard our culture and sometimes that
guard our culture and sometimes that
guard our culture and sometimes that means making hard decisions I guess it
means making hard decisions I guess it
means making hard decisions I guess it also makes it easier that you have such
also makes it easier that you have such
also makes it easier that you have such a well-defined culture and word that
a well-defined culture and word that
a well-defined culture and word that that’s always the core that you come
that’s always the core that you come
that’s always the core that you come back to and if you don’t have that then
back to and if you don’t have that then
back to and if you don’t have that then it makes it a lot harder to make those
it makes it a lot harder to make those
it makes it a lot harder to make those big decisions yeah the word I use around
big decisions yeah the word I use around
big decisions yeah the word I use around that evan is intentional we are very
that evan is intentional we are very
that evan is intentional we are very intentional about a culture and we make
intentional about a culture and we make
intentional about a culture and we make it very clear that if you came to visit
it very clear that if you came to visit
it very clear that if you came to visit and you brought some people with you and
and you brought some people with you and
and you brought some people with you and some of them have software projects on
some of them have software projects on
some of them have software projects on their mind and they think maybe I use
their mind and they think maybe I use
their mind and they think maybe I use memel they can come in and peek and they
memel they can come in and peek and they
memel they can come in and peek and they can see and ask a bunch of questions we
can see and ask a bunch of questions we
can see and ask a bunch of questions we don’t even know that’s why they’re here
don’t even know that’s why they’re here
don’t even know that’s why they’re here and they may never call us again and
and they may never call us again and
and they may never call us again and we’re okay with that the people who stay
we’re okay with that the people who stay
we’re okay with that the people who stay the people who get what it is we do have
the people who get what it is we do have
the people who get what it is we do have probably suffered somewhere else in
probably suffered somewhere else in
probably suffered somewhere else in their previous life and now they see the
their previous life and now they see the
their previous life and now they see the sensibility of what we’re describing
sensibility of what we’re describing
sensibility of what we’re describing because they’ve endured the other kind
because they’ve endured the other kind
because they’ve endured the other kind of suffering are in the sukkah so easily
of suffering are in the sukkah so easily
of suffering are in the sukkah so easily produce and they recognize that the
produce and they recognize that the
produce and they recognize that the approach we’ve taken is has a lot of
approach we’ve taken is has a lot of
approach we’ve taken is has a lot of common sense in it and they start to get
common sense in it and they start to get
common sense in it and they start to get it why it maybe looks expensive on one
it why it maybe looks expensive on one
it why it maybe looks expensive on one end but quite frankly the most expensive
end but quite frankly the most expensive
end but quite frankly the most expensive way to build software is that build
way to build software is that build
way to build software is that build software no one ever uses mmm sure it’s
software no one ever uses mmm sure it’s
software no one ever uses mmm sure it’s a good point um last question the team
a good point um last question the team
a good point um last question the team is obviously super important to you to
is obviously super important to you to
is obviously super important to you to maintain the culture and as you grow and
maintain the culture and as you grow and
maintain the culture and as you grow and you’ve been one of the fastest growing
you’ve been one of the fastest growing
you’ve been one of the fastest growing companies in the country which is
companies in the country which is
companies in the country which is amazing uh how do you hire for joy yes
amazing uh how do you hire for joy yes
amazing uh how do you hire for joy yes you you jettison the the traditional two
you you jettison the the traditional two
you you jettison the the traditional two people lying to each other interview
people lying to each other interview
people lying to each other interview process that I used to use in my old
process that I used to use in my old
process that I used to use in my old life and you trade it away for an
life and you trade it away for an
life and you trade it away for an audition and so literally we have 30 to
audition and so literally we have 30 to
audition and so literally we have 30 to 40 to 50 people at a time come in for an
40 to 50 people at a time come in for an
40 to 50 people at a time come in for an initial interview we call it an extreme
initial interview we call it an extreme
initial interview we call it an extreme interview and we pair you together with
interview and we pair you together with
interview and we pair you together with another candidate for 20 minutes and we
another candidate for 20 minutes and we
another candidate for 20 minutes and we watch you work together we don’t ask any
watch you work together we don’t ask any
watch you work together we don’t ask any questions during our interview we make
questions during our interview we make
questions during our interview we make it experiential we have you work
it experiential we have you work
it experiential we have you work together share a piece of paper and a
together share a piece of paper and a
together share a piece of paper and a pencil and a straightforward task we
pencil and a straightforward task we
pencil and a straightforward task we give you the weirdest instructions ever
give you the weirdest instructions ever
give you the weirdest instructions ever if you are on one of those interviews we
if you are on one of those interviews we
if you are on one of those interviews we would tell you when you’re sitting next
would tell you when you’re sitting next
would tell you when you’re sitting next to this candidate who might be competing
to this candidate who might be competing
to this candidate who might be competing for the same
for the same
for the same you are Evan your job is to try and get
you are Evan your job is to try and get
you are Evan your job is to try and get this the person sitting next to you a
this the person sitting next to you a
this the person sitting next to you a second interview and so this is Improv
second interview and so this is Improv
second interview and so this is Improv Theater you make your partner look good
Theater you make your partner look good
Theater you make your partner look good if they struggle help them out if
if they struggle help them out if
if they struggle help them out if they’re stumbling help them up and so we
they’re stumbling help them up and so we
they’re stumbling help them up and so we are teaching our culture from the moment
are teaching our culture from the moment
are teaching our culture from the moment of the interview we’d pair you three
of the interview we’d pair you three
of the interview we’d pair you three different times in that initial
different times in that initial
different times in that initial interview 20 minutes each and then we
interview 20 minutes each and then we
interview 20 minutes each and then we send you all home that was the first
send you all home that was the first
send you all home that was the first interview and then we talked about what
interview and then we talked about what
interview and then we talked about what we saw and the people we saw that
we saw and the people we saw that
we saw and the people we saw that demonstrated what we call kindergarten
demonstrated what we call kindergarten
demonstrated what we call kindergarten skills which in our mind fits to joy you
skills which in our mind fits to joy you
skills which in our mind fits to joy you know you they play well with others do
know you they play well with others do
know you they play well with others do they share do they not hit bite or
they share do they not hit bite or
they share do they not hit bite or scratch that sort of thing then we bring
scratch that sort of thing then we bring
scratch that sort of thing then we bring you in for a full day one day contract
you in for a full day one day contract
you in for a full day one day contract and you actually do real work in the
and you actually do real work in the
and you actually do real work in the team alongside one of our people in fact
team alongside one of our people in fact
team alongside one of our people in fact the people that were sitting over there
the people that were sitting over there
the people that were sitting over there table it was possible one of those pair
table it was possible one of those pair
table it was possible one of those pair partners was interviewing here because
partners was interviewing here because
partners was interviewing here because that’s what interviewing looks like you
that’s what interviewing looks like you
that’s what interviewing looks like you actually come in you do work we pay you
actually come in you do work we pay you
actually come in you do work we pay you for the day you work with one person in
for the day you work with one person in
for the day you work with one person in the morning another person in the
the morning another person in the
the morning another person in the afternoon if that works we bring in for
afternoon if that works we bring in for
afternoon if that works we bring in for a three-week trial and again you pair on
a three-week trial and again you pair on
a three-week trial and again you pair on real work we pay you for that and
real work we pay you for that and
real work we pay you for that and usually at that point we have a feeling
usually at that point we have a feeling
usually at that point we have a feeling on both sides that it’s going to work
on both sides that it’s going to work
on both sides that it’s going to work this is different and we don’t assume we
this is different and we don’t assume we
this is different and we don’t assume we could ever in words explain to you how
could ever in words explain to you how
could ever in words explain to you how different it is but if we put you in it
different it is but if we put you in it
different it is but if we put you in it and let you experience it directly you
and let you experience it directly you
and let you experience it directly you begin to understand does will this work
begin to understand does will this work
begin to understand does will this work for me we don’t assume it will i love
for me we don’t assume it will i love
for me we don’t assume it will i love the tradition a resume and cover letter
the tradition a resume and cover letter
the tradition a resume and cover letter how much attention you pay to that how
how much attention you pay to that how
how much attention you pay to that how how do you you know it is funny because
how do you you know it is funny because
how do you you know it is funny because I mean I used to do all the standard
I mean I used to do all the standard
I mean I used to do all the standard stuff when I was a manager back in my
stuff when I was a manager back in my
stuff when I was a manager back in my old life okay dumb is it that we try and
old life okay dumb is it that we try and
old life okay dumb is it that we try and assess a human being something as
assess a human being something as
assess a human being something as complex as a human with an eight and a
complex as a human with an eight and a
complex as a human with an eight and a half by eleven sheet of paper with words
half by eleven sheet of paper with words
half by eleven sheet of paper with words typed on it probably derived from a
typed on it probably derived from a
typed on it probably derived from a keyword search is something like monster
keyword search is something like monster
keyword search is something like monster com right you know drama 9.3 you know
com right you know drama 9.3 you know
com right you know drama 9.3 you know oracle nine point one point one point
oracle nine point one point one point
oracle nine point one point one point two it’s like seriously is what i want
two it’s like seriously is what i want
two it’s like seriously is what i want to ask you is are you a good
to ask you is are you a good
to ask you is are you a good kindergartner and so far we we have
kindergartner and so far we we have
kindergartner and so far we we have collected a few kindergarten report
collected a few kindergarten report
collected a few kindergarten report cards
cards
cards I’m guessing your mother still has your
I’m guessing your mother still has your
I’m guessing your mother still has your so if you lock if you think you’ve lost
so if you lock if you think you’ve lost
so if you lock if you think you’ve lost it just go ask my own show pick it up
it just go ask my own show pick it up
it just go ask my own show pick it up for you go read the qualities that you
for you go read the qualities that you
for you go read the qualities that you had in kindergarten because those are
had in kindergarten because those are
had in kindergarten because those are probably some of the most important
probably some of the most important
probably some of the most important qualities you will ever talk about in
qualities you will ever talk about in
qualities you will ever talk about in your lifetime that might be that might
your lifetime that might be that might
your lifetime that might be that might be next on your your job application
be next on your your job application
be next on your your job application process include a sample from your
process include a sample from your
process include a sample from your kindergarten I love it rich I know we
kindergarten I love it rich I know we
kindergarten I love it rich I know we went a little over i’m really grateful
went a little over i’m really grateful
went a little over i’m really grateful for the time today as i said i love the
for the time today as i said i love the
for the time today as i said i love the book I’m dog marking every page and
book I’m dog marking every page and
book I’m dog marking every page and taking notes and for those of you who
taking notes and for those of you who
taking notes and for those of you who are watching you can go check it out
are watching you can go check it out
are watching you can go check it out join ink on amazon and all of the major
join ink on amazon and all of the major
join ink on amazon and all of the major bookstores and i’m gonna go i’m gonna
bookstores and i’m gonna go i’m gonna
bookstores and i’m gonna go i’m gonna come on the tour I’m coming I got to set
come on the tour I’m coming I got to set
come on the tour I’m coming I got to set a date we’re gonna do the tour I’m
a date we’re gonna do the tour I’m
a date we’re gonna do the tour I’m excited for the follow up even if you
excited for the follow up even if you
excited for the follow up even if you come bring me a book I want to see what
come bring me a book I want to see what
come bring me a book I want to see what it is you dog-eared I love to hear what
it is you dog-eared I love to hear what
it is you dog-eared I love to hear what people found interesting every single
people found interesting every single
people found interesting every single page almost goodbye almost like there’s
page almost goodbye almost like there’s
page almost goodbye almost like there’s man one in ten pages that’s not mark so
man one in ten pages that’s not mark so
man one in ten pages that’s not mark so you’ll be doing a lot of you basically
you’ll be doing a lot of you basically
you’ll be doing a lot of you basically rereading your entire book alright well
rereading your entire book alright well
rereading your entire book alright well thank you for the time you guys can
thank you for the time you guys can
thank you for the time you guys can trigger the book drink or or or ghus the
trigger the book drink or or or ghus the
trigger the book drink or or or ghus the website menlo mental innovations com is
website menlo mental innovations com is
website menlo mental innovations com is that it yep yes mental innovations com
that it yep yes mental innovations com
that it yep yes mental innovations com all one word thanks so much that’s it
all one word thanks so much that’s it
all one word thanks so much that’s it thank you rich all right Thank You Evan
”
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